Come Let Us Reason

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05-02-2006, 09:59 PM
Micahyah

Come Let Us Reason
Come Let Us Reason Together
For In Reason Is Hidden, The Meaning of Life
Part I

Reason: The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
The gift of REASON is one of the most extraordinary gifts given to mankind. It is an attribute that is mandatory to having a relationship with God. He absolutely requires us to use our reason to even begin to fathom and comprehend Himself, ourselves and the world around us. However, REASON seems to have gone out the window when many of us became Christians, as well unbelievers have an extremely malformed reasoning capability.
“It is a fool who says there is no God.” - Psalm 53:1
Using our reason is commanded by God. It is the only time He says to mankind, let's do something TOGETHER.
“Come now, LET US REASON TOGETHER..." - Isaiah 1:18
Most sins are committed when reason goes out the window. It is also by lack of use of reason that many are in more darkness and lack of understanding of God, the plan of salvation and even themselves.
So let's take a journey into this strange world of reason. I guarantee, you will not be the same when you come out the other end.
Reason is best exercised when you are not being taught BY someone, but rather, the teacher doesn't teach, but merely poses questions, appealing to our REASON. So here we go:
- Is God omniscient (all knowing)? I'm sure we can all answer this one with, yes.
  - Okay, if God is all knowing, then He must have known that Lucifer would rebel and take with him a third of the angels in his rebellion, even before He created him, correct?
  - If God KNEW that Lucifer would rebel and wreak havoc on His creation, before He created Him, why did God insist on creating him and not some other archangel that He knew would not rebel?
  - Knowing that Lucifer would rebel, God created Him anyway and even gave him an exalted position as the covering cherub of His throne and called Him Lucifer, meaning bearer of light, according to the word, correct?
  - Did Lucifer catch God off guard when he rebelled? Absolutely not. God knew the exact moment that he would do so. He knew this moment before He even created him.
- Alright, so far so good. If we have come this far in agreement, using our God-given REASON, let us apply the same reason with regards to Adam and Eve.
  - God knew before He even created Adam and Eve, that they would sin and fall, correct?
  - Why then did God create Adam and Eve, and not two people that He foreknew would not sin against His law? He could have you know, and they wouldn't be simply obedient robots, just two obedient people who loved and honored their Creator. So then, why did He create instead, two people that He knew would sin and fall from the blessed gift of immortality into this vile and mutated specimen that we have become?
Using your reason, you now realize that God is up to something. An amazing Divine Plan was in the works from the very beginning, even before Lucifer was created or you and I. A plan, remember that. A plan that required a rebellious angel and a rebellious first man and woman. If this were not so, why did God make it so?
This plan is beyond just the plan of salvation, as the plan of salvation is only needed because God knowingly created an archangel that would rebel and knowingly created a man and woman who would rebel, instead of creating those He foreknew would not rebel.
Think about that for a moment — with your reason. As reason cannot be rushed. We must meditate on certain deep things for them to truly sink in.
Now you see, so far I have taught you NOTHING. You have come to these conclusions and teachings —on your own, using your own reason, but we are far from finished.
So what is this magnificent Divine Plan, that the plan of salvation is a part of, but is beyond even it?

When Adam and Eve sinned, the Word states that God came looking for them in the Garden in the cool of the day. Why was God looking for them, if He is omniscient? He wasn't really looking for them, He already knew exactly where they were, as well as what they had done—as expected. Their disobedience was not a shock nor a surprise to Yahweh. He knew long before He created them that this is what they would do—yet He created them anyway. Is this not true?
Welcome to Part II of COME LET US REASON TOGETHER, where you will not be taught by man, but by your own God-given reasoning you will come to your own conclusions, and in effect, BE TAUGHT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Why did God say, "Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat of the tree that I told you not to?" Why would Yahweh ask them these questions, if He, being the all-knowing, Most High, already knew they had disobeyed Him? Not only did He know they had disobeyed Him, He already knew what their answers would be, so why ask?
Herein is the first slight glimpse at the personality and pre-ordained MASTER PLAN of Yahweh, of which the plan of salvation is a sub-plan of, as we reasoned in part one of this message. The very meaning of life is about to be revealed.
Here are two people that He knew would be disobedient, before He created them; knew exactly when they would be disobedient and knew exactly how they would be deceived by the serpent—yet He created them—and the serpent—anyway, instead of two people He knew would not be disobedient. Now He is acting like He didn't even know where they were, and that He was not the least bit aware that they had sinned, as He asked, “Have you eaten of the tree that I told you not to?”
Our REASON tells us that God knows all things. He knows the END from the BEGINNING. Therefore our reason also tells us that if God already knew, the only other reason He would act in such a way is for the benefit of whomever He was speaking to. It is US who do not know our rear-ends from a hole in the ground. It is US that need to get to know ourselves. God already knows every single thing about us. He wants us to get to know ourselves. His dialogue was for Adam and Eve's benefit, not His.
Many think that God is testing them in this event or that event in their live's, but come, let us reason together! Why would God need to test us, He already knows how we will respond in every single scenario presented to us. Is this not true? Then why would God test us? Why would God test our faith, knowing already what level our faith is at?
IT STANDS TO REASON that He must be testing us, not for Himself, but for our benefit, that we may know the level of our faith, or that we would understand something, or that we would grow. All things He allows to happen in our lives are evidently (stand to reason) not for Him to find out something about us—it is for us to find out and discover about ourselves.
Why does God want us find out about ourselves?
More on this absolutely astounding REASONING SESSION later, but for now, let's return to the Garden of Eden to continue to lay the ground work of this awesome revelation concerning reason and the meaning of life.
Adam and Eve hid from Yahweh, according to the Word, but they did not consider that you cannot hide from God. So it stands to reason that God played along with them for a moment, the first game of hide and seek, as well as the first passing of the buck session. Listen to this dialogue from an omniscient (all knowing) God to His creatures, our great, great etc. grandparents:
And they heard the voice of Yahweh walking in the garden in the cool of the day. And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Yahweh in the middle of the trees of the garden.
And Yahweh called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?
Like He didn't know already :-)
And Adam said, I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I am naked, and I hid myself.
Like it is possible to hide from God :-)
Do you notice how many people fear God today? Maybe even you are one of them. This is not the type of fear God is talking about when He says to fear Him. This fear could be better understood as meaning respect. However fear of God comes from a wrong standing with Him - is this not true? It is the same as fearing your own parents when you know you have done wrong, but normally you do not fear them, you love them and play with them —fearlessly. It is only when we have been caught being up to no good that our love and enjoyment of our parents turns to fear. The same with Yahweh.
If you fear Him you can talk to Him, as He is very approachable, thanks to our being reconciled to Him through the sacrifice of His Only Begotten, Yahshua. The sad truth is most people do not have a healthy fear (respect) of the Lord their God, and this includes many Christians.
Now back to Adam and Eve, reason and the meaning of life.
And He said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree which I commanded you that you should not eat?
- Genesis 3:11
My goodness is Yahweh playing this for all He can :-) You know He already knows the answer, and what is this, “Who told you that you were naked” line of questioning. Their reason had told them they were naked, now enhanced by having the knowledge of both good and evil from eating of the fruit of the tree. God knew a billion-trillion years before they ever did it, what they would do. He knew it before they were ever created, but here, Yahweh asks THEM to respond, rather than openly accuse them.
Now all of us know this parental technique and why parents do this, it is because parents want to hear their child confess the truth and not lie. Like George Washington's, “I cannot tell a lie. I cut down the cherry tree.”, but God already knows what they're going to say, so why even ask? He knows they're going to go into massive denial and passing the buck, so why even ask? So that Adam and Eve can get to know themselves better and that they had not only sinned in the act of disobedience, but in their attempts at passing the buck, rather than taking responsibility for their crime. They are learning of their wretchedness.
If Yahweh would have accused them of their sin, they would stand accused, but would not comprehend their nature to sin— even further. He allowed them to go down that path of lies and deception, wondering all the while, why am I lying so much!? Much like Jim Carey in the movie, Liar, Liar, Adam and Eve did not KNOW themselves and were surprised at how they even answered Yahweh with a lie on top of the sin they had already committed. This was the reason why God played dumb, as to having any knowledge where they were and that they had even eaten of the tree.
If it were not for the fact that they suddenly felt naked, they probably would have gone into a conspiracy of lies to cover up what they had done, thinking that, well, if Yahweh doesn't know where we are and has to ask, and also has to ask if we ate, HE MUST NOT KNOW, SO LET'S NOT TELL HIM!
Ah, but alas, they were full of the knowledge of good and evil and suddenly found that being naked was somehow a "bad" thing, something to be ashamed of. So the only alternative was to try and outfox God by playing the BLAME GAME, as Adam had already blown it by admitting that he was naked. There was no physical difference, as Yahweh asked, "Who TOLD YOU that you were naked."
And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.
- Genesis 3:12
Wow, Adam, what happened to your great love for this woman? What happened to chivalry? It died in the Garden! Adam not only blames the woman, but even goes as far as to blame God Himself, saying, the woman that YOU GAVE TO BE WITH ME is the reason...
Notice Yahweh's demeanor in all of this. He hears Adam's non-chivalrous accusation and feeble attempt at passing the buck regarding the woman and takes note that not only does he blame the woman, but according to Adam, he blames God Himself, for giving him such an imperfect woman in the first place.
Yahweh simply takes note and says no more to Adam and turns to the woman, following Adam's accusation—though unaware to Adam, God is not buying into his line of nonsense, as he has already seen it from the beginning. It is all Divine Deja Vu, if you will, to the Most High.
And Yahweh said to the woman, What is this you have done? And the woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I ate.
- Genesis 3:13
At this time your reason tells you that Adam was more than likely sighing a sigh of relief, thinking—I can't believe it, HE BOUGHT IT! Boy is SHE gonna get it now! Adam, out of fear and self preservation is ready to sell Eve down the river, not realizing the misery it would cause himself, as he is as yet, unfamiliar with what the sad emotion of missing someone is and what torment loneliness can be. If he knew, he would have admitted to his crime and been willing to die rather than go through an eternal life with that misery—as many of you are also familiar with this strange, deep and horrendous emotion of losing someone that you love. What guilt would be upon him, knowing that he was also guilty, but got away with it, and was responsible for the destruction of the one he really loved. But of course Adam was not thinking (reasoning) at the time. Fear had utterly suffocated his reason.
Now it is Eve's turn to get to know her-self. At least her answer was more forthcoming than Adams. She just said the serpent deceived me and I ate it! Which is in essence the truth, with a tiny bit of passing the buck to—ah yes, the serpent.
Eve was hoping that God would punish the serpent for DECEIVING her, rather than herself for being deceived. I am sure that she also cast a glaring eye at Mr. Lover-Boy over there, Adam-Benedict Arnold, for so throwing her to the wolves to save his own useless-eater hyde.
What is Yahweh's response to Eve's testimony? Nothing. He lets her believe that He bought her line also and turns to the serpent:
And Yahweh said to the serpent, Because you have done this you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every animal of the field. You shall go upon your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.
- Genesis 3:14
He said a few other things, but for the purpose of where the Holy Spirit is going in this, you can read it for yourselves.
Then Yahweh turned to Eve and pronounced sentence:
To the woman He said, I will greatly increase your sorrow and your conception. In pain you shall bear sons, and your desire shall be toward your husband, and he shall rule over you.
- Genesis 3:16
Do you think that Adam was feeling a bit of false security about this time, thinking, yeah, give me a new woman. One that isn't broken. But, then it was Adam's turn for sentencing, with no further discussion on the blame game.
And to Adam He said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it! The ground is cursed for your sake. In pain shall you eat of it all the days of your life.
- Genesis 3:17
Then Yahweh turned to Yahshua, His Only Begotten and says,
Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever, therefore Yahweh sent him out from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he had been taken.
- Genesis 3:23
And to think, that none of this was a surprise to Yahweh in the least. He knew what they would do even before He created them, yet He chose to create them anyway, rather than two who would have been obedient.
Come let us reason together:
Why did Yahweh create Satan, Adam and Eve and the third of the angels that rebelled, if He knew that is what they were going to do? Why not just NOT create THEM, but create more like the two-thirds that didn't rebel, and rather than create Adam and Eve whom He knew would sin, create Bob and Mary that would not? (Bob and Mary is a metaphor - so don't think it some strange doctrine).
Why would God create creatures that would require that He give His Only Begotten Son to come to this earth and suffer greatly and die at the hands of wicked men in order to save our sorry rear-ends? Why not just save Himself from the grief and create people who would not be so obstinate, arrogant, haughty and sinful—fueled by another being He created called Satan? Why create such a mess as this? He didn't have to you know, but He did, and He did it for a REASON!

Next: The Creator Has A Master Plan (Part III, can be found at the title link)
05-02-2006, 11:16 PM
Churchwork

Re: Come Let Us Reason

After reading Parts I-IV (which started to really fall at Part IV), your profile, and your justifications, this is my assessment...

Your reason for not accepting OSAS is wrong, for the verse you try to use is referring to rewards of the millennium, not losing salvation. Not accepting elders of a locality is not a valid reason because you misread in thinking I meant they need to be older. Not accepting the 66 books because of references to other books does not justify including those other books that have errors in them. God's way is dealing in books. 66 books is showing the marriage of Satan and man that needs to be separated in the redemptive design where man takes on Satan's number because he loves his ways.

It is reason that is needed to agree, but reason that is communicated from the quickened spirit where the Holy Spirit is allowed to work in our communion with Him. This reason will differ from yours.

“I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.” - John 6:12

I like these paragraphs. Powerful!

Satan, who KNOWS his time is short and has nothing to gain by being benevolent, speaks into the minds of these wayward brethren to inspire them to do his bidding, and that is to destroy the earth, his last ditch effort at snubbing God for not forgiving him of his unpardonable sin and allowing him to return to heaven. Our wayward brethren follow the thoughts and intents of this scorned fallen angel who has nothing to lose, believing his lies that they can indeed dominate and control the earth, not knowing Satan's real intention is to get them to be his instruments in destroying the earth and themselves in the process:

And except those days should be shortened, there should NO flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:2

This is the lie of Part 4 -

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.- 1 John 3:2

If we will be like Yahshua, who is Yahshua like? I didn't say it, you told yourself the answer — by your own reason. Yahshua is like God, but how can this be, are you saying that we will be like God? No I am not, your REASON has told you this, because, if Yahshua is like God, and we shall be like Him then it STANDS TO REASON that we too will be like the Father! We will not be the Father, but we shall be like Him. To deny it is to deny the fullness of His Gospel, His Master Plan, of which the plan of salvation is merely a subset of, as it is written in His Word.

This is a lie because this verse says, like Jesus, not like the Father. God stops us at the Son, and does not carry us to be like the Father.

This is good...

However, there is nothing more ridiculous than a larvae thinking it is the sum total of what it is when it is not, neither can it perform in the capacity of what it shall become while it has yet to be transformed. The same goes for man and his silly new age teaching that we are already gods (butterflies) - when we are not. Just as surely as a caterpillar thinking it is a butterfly launches from a cliff to it's destruction, thinking it can already fly, the same disastrous result will occur to the man who feels he is already a god (elohim) and is not.

To have the mind of Christ is not to be the Father...

"But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 7.16).

The heresy mounts...

It is in His Word - we are to become ELOHIM (Part 4).

Christians are accused for rejecting this heresy...

you want to kick at the pricks about it

What is the truth of this mistaken assumption? It is this. We are not to be gods, but any reference in the Bible regarding our being gods was only to point to Christ the Son of God, for there were men in the Bible who were leaders of the people who were equivalently called gods to those people they ruled over. It doesn't mean we will become gods.

This is the evil idea we need to be like the Father...

EARTH (Elohim Academy of the Returning To Heaven)...many called to this opportunity of beyond our imagination exaltation into Elohim-ship through His Only Begotten Yahshua

This is mormonism in its new form. Do you want more evidence this is a lie?

but ALL are called, but sadly few will be chosen. And to those that are not, it will be their fault, not God's, as this invitation and opportunity is given TO ALL!

Look at these words above. Chosen is not being used in its proper usage. All those that are saved are called, but not all the called receive the reward of reigning during the millennial kingdom, so they are not chosen to return as Christ's holy myriads (Jude 1.14,15). This cult person writing these above comments is trying to make you think you need to be like God the Father, and alters this phrase of Scripture not to be about rewards.

We can still have relationship with the Father through the Son by being pillars in the new city with God and the Lamb at the center. We are made in the image of God the Father, Son and Spirit, but we do not become like the Father, but the Son. We do not become Elohims.

God still has His common bond relationship being in the image of His Son who are brothers and sisters. The evil idea proposed is that God is lonely.

A marriage that will end both mankind's and God's loneliness.

This is an evil idea. God is not lonely. He does not create us out of some lack, but He creates us out of His glory to have some to walk with. It is hard for us to understand how God could not be lonely, but indeed He is not lonely. A lesser gnostic god is lonely and creates out of loneliness. True enough...

Earth's experience will never be forgotten and will always stand as a testimony of our common bond with our Father and our Savior - that our joy will finally be full.

But this is false...

The suffering, the sorrows, the joys and the pain are an integral requirement of what conditions were needed to create this unfathomable creation, a mate for God. It required all the participants to suffer together to create an impenetrable bond between us and God. You and I suffer together with Yahshua who suffered with us and for us all, as well the Father who suffered the most, as He suffers all that we do in this creation process, but soon and very soon, His Eternal Companions will be His, and we shall be His—forever.

This is false because we do not need this suffering, but it is the sad consequence of sin. Inspite of it God created knowing it would happen. So the Son suffered and bore our sins.

True to my conscience I have no conviction against me in saying we will never be like the Father! Praise Yahweh! Thank you Yahshuah!

the Bible (a pagan name by the way, based on the goddess Biblia, which the city Biblios was named after, which is famous for parchment) contains the complete works of the Word of God. Jude himself proves that there are missing books.

Since the Bible is a famous parchment, this should not be an issue. Jesus is famous! Should our creator be anything less?
05-03-2006, 01:34 AM
Churchwork

Re: Come Let Us Reason

Corollary helps for your teachings on your site:

The battle of Rev. 9.16,18 is going to be over oil in the middle east which will involve not just USA usurping itself, but other countries as well.

The two horns are really what? Since the beast is a person and not a kingdom, his two horns should signify two spirits; for the horns of the Lamb are referred to as being the Spirit of God (Rev. 5.6), and the horns of the beast are like those of the Lamb. "To give breath to it" (13.15) may be translated to "give spirit to it"; this is one spirit, and 16.13 tells of another spirit.

Chiliasm rapture was in the first century. It didn't start at 1830. There are lots of raptures,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/12raptures.htm
Enoch and Elijah were raptured and will return as the two witnesses to die as martyrs in the Tribulation.

John 17:15 - This verse is not referring to rapture, but Rev. 3.10, 12.5; Luke 21.36, 1 Thess. 4.15-17, 1 Cor. 15.23,50-52, Matt. 24.37,40-41 and Rev. 7.9 are.

Conclusion: After the initial 3 parts things started to go down hill fast: (1) rejecting the rapture and preferring historicalism, (2) inordinate USA bashing like chomsky, (3) saying we will be like the Father as gods, (4) non-OSAS, (5) rejecting the 66 books as God's complete Word, (5) not accepting Apostles appoint Elders of a locality. This is an example of a good start, but then it falters: front-loading truth with deceptions that follow. Gullible people will be fooled I pray not!
05-03-2006, 09:49 AM
Micahyah

Re: Come Let Us Reason

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

The two horns are really what? Since the beast is a person and not a kingdom, his two horns should signify two spirits; for the horns of the Lamb are referred to as being the Spirit of God (Rev. 5.6), and the horns of the beast are like those of the Lamb. "To give breath to it" (13.15) may be translated to "give spirit to it"; this is one spirit, and 16.13 tells of another spirit.

There is not just one beast in the book of Revelations, and beasts do correspond to empires, explained in Daniel 8 by the angel Gabriel to Daniel.

Quote:

The ram which you saw having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the shaggy goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.
(Dan 8:20-21)

This is describing the Media-Persian empire as a 2 horned beast, the ram, and the shaggy goat is the empire of Greece. The horn is Alexander the Great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

Chiliasm rapture was in the first century. It didn't start at 1830. There are lots of raptures,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/12raptures.htm
Enoch and Elijah were raptured and will return as the two witnesses to die as martyrs in the Tribulation.

John 17:15 - This verse is not referring to rapture, but Rev. 3.10, 12.5; Luke 21.36, 1 Thess. 4.15-17, 1 Cor. 15.23,50-52, Matt. 24.37,40-41 and Rev. 7.9 are.

What you call another rapture, I refer to as the outpouring of the latter rain on the first fruits.

Quote:

You are My war-club and weapons of war; for with you I will shatter nations; and with you I will destroy kingdoms. And with you I will shatter the horse and his rider; and with you I will shatter the chariot and his rider. Also with you I will shatter man and woman; and with you I will shatter old and young; and with you I will shatter the young man and the girl. I will also shatter the shepherd and his flock with you. And with you I will shatter the farmer and his team; and with you I will shatter heads and rulers.
(Jer 51:20-23)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

Conclusion: After the initial 3 parts things started to go down hill fast: (1) rejecting the rapture and preferring historicalism,

see above, about the outpouring of the Latter rain. Historicalism? Explain why you make that charge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

(2) inordinate USA bashing like chomsky,

It has nothing to do with inordinate USA bashing, but delivering the massage to the Babylonians. Rev 18:1-4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

(3) saying we will be like the Father as gods,

Won't we be in the likeness of Yahshua? Who is Yahshua like but the Father? Look at your number 1 question in your questionnaire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

(4) non-OSAS,

Yahweh knows but we can not assume we know, for narrow is the way. Remember what Yahshua said:

Quote:

Luk 9:55

Quote:

But He turned and rebuked them and said, You do not know of whatspirit you are.

Quote:

Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works? And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!
(Mat 7:22-23)

It is not time to 'relax' as a Christian until that time where there is confirmation from the Spirit.

There are wicked servants who will be wailing and gnashing their teeth. This is wicked servants, those who call themselves Christians.

Quote:

the Lord of that servant shall come in a day when he does not look for Him, and in an hour which he does not know. And He shall cut him apart and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 24:50-51)

Also, remember what will occur in Daniel 12:

Quote:

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:2)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

(5) rejecting the 66 books as God's complete Word,

6 symbolizes incomplete, and there are allusions like in Jude that there may be others. We do not have to solely rely on the 66 books of the Word for Truth, because we can Test things, even the Word, to prayer to Our Father. We were given by Yahshua a spirit of Truth. We can test everything with sincere prayer to Our Father, for confirmation.

Quote:

But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
(Joh 14:26)

Quote:

And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
(Joh 15:26)
05-03-2006, 10:15 AM
Micahyah

Re: Come Let Us Reason

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

This is a lie because this verse says like Jesus, not like the Father. God stops us at the Son, and does not carry us to be like the Father.

From the Word,

Quote:

I589 have said,559 Ye are gods;430 and all3605 of you859 are children1121 of the most High.5945
(Psa 82:6)

From Strong's Concordance 430: elohim. What is heretical about something spoken of in the Word?

Who is the Son like but the Father?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

What is the truth of this mistaken assumption? It is this. We are not to be gods, but any reference in the Bible regarding our being gods was only to point to Christ the Son of God, for there were men in the Bible who were leaders of the people who were equivalently called gods to those people. It doesn't mean we will become Gods.

This is the evil idea we need to be like the Father...

Again, look at Psalm 82. And think about who the Son is like. For those elect, who are the Kings spoken of as Yahshua is King of Kings, will they not be like Him?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

This is mormonism in its new form. Do you want more evidence this is a lie?

This is not mormonism, I'm sure you know the difference, which is why you even say its in a different 'form'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

We can still have relationship with the Father through the Son by being pillars in the new city with God and the Lamb at the center. We are made in the image of God the Father, Son and Spirit, but we do not become like the Father, but the Son. We do not become Elohims.

This is your assumption, that it is not in our destiny, but no where in the Word does it say that we will not become Elohims. See Psalm 82, or John 10:34.

Think about the destiny revealed in Revelation 21 and 22. Are you saying we will be immortal, living forever with Yahweh and Yahshua, non-elohims? Where is your basis for that assumption in the Word? What would the difference be between ourselves and angels, as far as our destiny, if we were not going to be elohims? Yahweh already had immortal pets, what would be the purpose of our creation, if not to have a different relationship with Him than the angels have?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

This is an evil idea. God is not lonely. He does not create us out of some lack, but He creates us out of His glory to have some to walk with. It is hard for us to understand how God could not be lonely, but indeed He is not lonely. A lesser gnostic god is lonely and creates out of loneliness. True enough...

Have you asked this of Him? Why did He deliberately create Adam first and let Adam sense what it was like to be master of his domain but without a peer? What was the purpose of this object lesson? Are you saying that our omniscient Father just forget to give Adam a mate? Now who is selling short Our Father? The plan of creation was for Yahweh and Yahshua to create peers. Peers bonded by common experience. A spiritual marriage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

This is false because we do not need this suffering, but it is the sad consequence of sin. Inspite of it God created knowing it would happen. So the Son suffered and bore our sins.

The question you need to ask is why did Yahweh create it knowing that it would happen? Think about the story of Abraham and Issac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy

Since the Bible is a famous parchment, this should not be an issue. Jesus is famous!

Where in the Word does it say to honor fame over truth? The Pope is famous, what's your point? Should we follow what is the most famous doctrine? Or continually search for and hold on to the Truth? Shouldn't fame make us wary?

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Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
(Luk 6:26)
05-03-2006, 11:58 AM
Churchwork

Re: Come Let Us Reason

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micahyah

There is not just one beast in the book of Revelations, and beasts do correspond to empires, explained in Daniel 8 by the angel Gabriel to Daniel

Of course, but we are talking about Rev. 13.11. This wild beast is a revitalized person, since Hades is beneath the earth, or earth may refer to the Jewish nation. This beast is the false prohpet. He is a person since (1) three times the Bible calls him the false prophet (16.13, 19.20, 20.10), (2) the Lord has clearly stated that there will be false prophets (Matt. 24.24), and (3) there are three evil spirits: Satan, the beast (Antichrist), and another beast (the false prophet). Each has his mission to fulfill. Thus, this beast cannot be a system but a person. At the time of evil, we have the counterfeit of the triune God. The first beast is the revitalization of Nero, while the second beast will be the return from the dead of the betrayer Judas. Various Scriptures prove this.

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What you call another rapture, I refer to as the outpouring of the latter rain on the first fruits.

There is certainly the latter rain and the last week, but with it is a rapture, for how else do we see the saints in heaven (Rev. 7.9) if they are not raptured as like an Enoch or an Elijah were or where Matt. 24.37,40-41 says some will be taken and some will be left. Both the taken and the left are saved, but the left will be raptured at the 7th t rumpet (1 Cor. 15.50-52, 1 Thess. 4.15-17), whereas those who are taken at first rapture before the first trumpet escape the Hour of trial (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36). You certainly have this problem to contend with in your teaching: (1) rejecting the rapture when there is a rapture, and (2) pounding Darby for the first rapture when there is a first rapture (though not all believers are raptured at first rapture) so that your teaching is historicalism.

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It has nothing to do with inordinate USA bashing, but delivering the massage to the Babylonians. Rev 18:1-4.

Babylonia is certainly like USA which will be used to shatter nations, but Rev. 18.1-4 is not referring to USA, but is referring to the Rome city center after religious Rome has been destroyed. The woman in view here is religious Rome (RCC) and political Rome, not USA. You are jumping ahead of the gun. USA is going to fall away for the European center in Rome. Though there is some similarities to USA, because USA has been the greatest nation in human history, there is yet the European Union that is coming which the Bible is referring to. USA will be like any other nation, as it loses much of its power to try to deal with its burdening debt problems. Bush should not be the emphasis. He may actually be born-again. The emphasis should be watching the European Union getting stronger and stronger for it is through this beast of 7 heads and 10 horns that will become very powerful. This is why I say your USA bashing is vanity!

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Won't we be in the likeness of Yahshua? Who is Yahshua like but the Father? Look at your number 1 question in your questionnaire.

Question 1 doesn't help you with your line of thought that I see. Yahshua yes, not Yawheh. Now look at question 3, "Do you believe God is 3 Persons, the Godhead is not a Person or one of the 3 Persons, God is one substance, not gods or beings, and you’re not God in nature, grace or life; the Godhead is not mentally revealed first, but intuitively in the spirit?"

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Yahweh knows but we can not assume we know, for narrow is the way. Remember what Yahshua said:

Not only does Yahweh know, but God said we shall know to. God does not give us a vain faith that we don't know. We know. I know I have eternal life which can never be taken away. I am sad to here you do not have the same faith as me, though not unexpected. Luke 9.55 is not saying James and John are going to hell. Similarly, with Matt. 7.22-23! Your confusion as I said before - you're not listening - this verse you refer to does not speak of new birth, but a deeper walk and inner life in Christ. Some Christians will have such a deeper walk, while others will not. Know that you have made two brutal errors here in misreading the Scriptures.

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It is not time to 'relax' as a Christian until that time where there is confirmation from the Spirit. There are wicked servants who will be wailing and gnashing their teeth. This is wicked servants, those who call themselves Christians.

This servant does not refer to the unsaved tares, but those servants - since servants are saved - who will lose rewards of the millennial kingdom (Rev. 20.2-7). It is the same teaching as Matt. 24.50-51. Gnashing of teeth represents regret and wailing is sorrow for loss of rewards that they could not return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years. You see you make the focus all about being saved and not being saved, whereas as the Lord is showing it is a book for Christians about rewards and loss of rewards. You do not read by the Holy Spirit but by a carnal mind.

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Also, remember what will occur in Daniel 12:

This is referring to eternal life and eternal damnantion. It is not the same as Matt. 7.22,23.

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6 symbolizes incomplete, and there are allusions like in Jude that there may be others. We do not have to solely rely on the 66 books of the Word for Truth, because we can Test things, even the Word, to prayer to Our Father. We were given by Yahshua a spirit of Truth. We can test everything with sincere prayer to Our Father, for confirmation.

By saying God's Complete Word is the 66 books does not mean we do not rely on other information, but that His Word is complete and stands the test of time in the embodiment of Christ. You should try to find your example in Jude and the "may be" that you hold your hat on. In any book you try to add it can be shown to be in error, therefore as a book it is not God's Word.

The Number "6"

"6" is the number of the devil. It is also the number of man because man has sinned by listening to the word of the devil, and hence he is joined with the devil. Before dawn, the darkness of the night seems to deepen; likewise, the number 6 before the complete number 7 is also at its worst. 6 is a number which can be divided; it is therefore a weak number. Men as well as the devil are always weak. That number is lower than the number 7; consequently, men and the devil can never overcome God. May people always realize that their number is 6.

Man was created on the sixth day (Gen. 1). Men should work for six days in a week (Ex. 23.12). A Hebrew serves as slave for only six years (Deut. 15.12). The land of Canaan is to be cultivated successively for six years (Lev. 25.3). Human history is altogether about six thousand years. Moses waited in the mountain for six days before God appeared to him (Ex. 24.15-18). The throne of Solomon has six steps to ascend (1 Kings 10.19). The hours of the day may be divided by 6. Athaliah usurped the throne for six years (2 Kings 11.3). In Genesis 4.16-24, we read that the descendants of Cain are recorded up to the sixth generation. The sixth letter to the Church mentions the hour of trial upon the whole earth (Rev. 3.10). The sixth seal reveals the wrath of the Lamb upon mankind (6.12ff.). The sixth trumpet predicts the killing of one third of the world population (9.13ff.). The sixth bowl prepares the way for the kings of the world—under the instigation of the unclean spirits—to war against Christ (16.12ff.). The human name of the incarnated Word is Jesus, which in the Greek original is composed of six letters. Six times the Lord Jesus was attacked as demon possessed; how the natural man is always ready to attack our most holy Lord.

When man under the hand of Satan opposes God, his number is frequently connected with the number 6. Goliath is the first example mentioned: his height was six cubits and a span, and his spear’s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron (1 Sam. 17.4,7). The golden image of Nebuchadnezzar is the second example: its height was sixty cubits, and its breadth was six cubits (Dan. 3.1-3). The future Antichrist is the third example: his number will be 666 (Rev. 13.18). One comforting thought should be mentioned here: no matter whatever men or the devil may do, the number is only 6, whereas the number of our God is 7; as a consequence, men and devils can never measure up to God.
05-03-2006, 12:46 PM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micahyah

From the Word, From Strong's Concordance 430: elohim. What is heretical about something spoken of in the Word?
Who is the Son like but the Father? Again, look at Psalm 82. And think about who the Son is like. For those elect, who are the Kings spoken of as Yahshua is King of Kings, will they not be like Him?

Remember the context, as rulers and kings ("rulers, judges" = Elohim), they were called in relation to the peoples.

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This is not mormonism, I'm sure you know the difference, which is why you even say its in a different 'form'.

The difference is mormons say God is gods. You do not say that. That's the difference. Yet, they say they will be gods just as you do. That's how you are the same. You just put a new sugar-coat on it. Nothing new really!

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This is your assumption, that it is not in our destiny, but no where in the Word does it say that we will not become Elohims. See Psalm 82, or John 10:34.

Again, repeating myself, these two verses are speaking about the leaders in the OT period, and if they could be called such, why can't Jesus be the Son of God? That's the point you overlooked, not that we become gods. Nowhere in the Bible will you ever find that we become gods or even as some say God, like for example the The Local Church cult that taken from theosis and the eatern orthodox God-man mentality. These are just special teachings not reflected in God's loving Word.

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Think about the destiny revealed in Revelation 21 and 22. Are you saying we will be immortal, living forever with Yahweh and Yahshua, non-elohims? Where is your basis for that assumption in the Word? What would the difference be between ourselves and angels, as far as our destiny, if we were not going to be elohims? Yahweh already had immortal pets, what would be the purpose of our creation, if not to have a different relationship with Him than the angels have?

We are not pets, for are pillars pets? No, of course not! We are with God and walking with Him in all His glory, yet we are not gods. Get off your high horse! Since you can find not one example in the Scriptures we are gods, know it is just a pet teaching. I have eternal life, God's life, yet, I am not a god or God. That's what always distinquishes me from God. Always!

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Have you asked this of Him? Why did He deliberately create Adam first and let Adam sense what it was like to be master of his domain but without a peer? What was the purpose of this object lesson? Are you saying that our omniscient Father just forget to give Adam a mate? Now who is selling short Our Father? The plan of creation was for Yahweh and Yahshua to create peers. Peers bonded by common experience. A spiritual marriage.

Peers, not gods; nor was God lonely, but simply chose to do it out of His glory! His Holy Spirit reveals this in agreement with the Word. Why does this offend you? It is because of man's mental gymnastics that can be independent of God's will! Do you see the gnosticism creeping in which is a lesser god creating because of his loneliness you surmise. This is how you are exposed! The lesson does not teach that God is lonely but that God created Adam first to show God created first who wants a partner, though not gods. There is no need for gods when He has created man in His image and to be pillars of the new city to walk with as peers! Idols are referred to as gods. Your error is like many of the fictional scholarly writings of the 19th century where they had tried to fill in the blanks and step where they do not belong. There is no need for you step where you don't belong. It is only because you try to self-exalt yourself or to make yourself feel special with a pet teaching that you do this. Let it go! Just like Pentecostals get carried away changing the meaning of tongues, so do you do the same with the meaning of the use of the term "gods". I have told you the truth about your condition. Theosis is not of God.

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The question you need to ask is why did Yahweh create it knowing that it would happen? Think about the story of Abraham and Issac.

I have already read your 4 parts intricately, which is why I know it is wrong, though much is true. Satan tries to mingle truth with his entries. Abraham giving up his son as a sacrifice is to point to Christ and his own selflessness as well as God ending child sacrifices that plagued the nations in the region. The nation under Abraham changed all that when his God said stop the child sacrifices! It was not for the purpose of suffering like the Father suffers in seeing His children in sin otherwise suffering becomes the idol and the object. Let it go! Now! Small tinge of lies can do much damage to faith. Even so, Abraham did feel His Father's hurt in the same action as a consequence, but it was not the aim of God. You speak like an abusive father who says "you need to go out and suffer like I did" to know my pain. This is not love! Nor is it the aim! Nor does it build a holy bond. It actually speaks of the jealousy of a father to his son. Parents should never bring their own suffering onto their children. This is a sickness and should never be the object!

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Where in the Word does it say to honor fame over truth? The Pope is famous, what's your point? Should we follow what is the most famous doctrine? Or continually search for and hold on to the Truth? Shouldn't fame make us wary?

You accused God's loving Word of being praised, relating it to crowds, which to my mind is demented for you to do that. Why ask me to honor fame over truth? That is a beguiling question since I never said that. Jesus is famous! Don't be afraid of this! He comes to save, not to condemn. Don't compare the unsaved Pope to Christ Jesus, the Word of God (John 1.1) which is embodiment of the Bible. We may boast in the what God has done, Who gave the Word of God, the Bible, expressing the fullness of Jesus Christ.

We are not gods, but the context is: "hast made them unto our God kings and priests: and they shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5.10). We whom are saved and whom will be rewarded will receive rewards: "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev. 20.4) and "shall be priests of God and of Christ" (v.6). Not gods!

"The number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" (v.11).

"Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever" (vv.12,13).

Never be afraid to praise the Lamb!

Since you have a site that is so committed to your idea, you simply will not repent but rationalize yourself further. Because of this you are unhealthy for Biblocality Forums and God's desire to reclaim Biblical locality, to reward overcomers in the millennium. I even read on your site that there is not enough time for this. Your short time horizon is too narrow a view as man so often is.
05-03-2006, 12:55 PM
Churchwork

You can see there is something wrong with your scribe, for where he said No is where his false teaching persist.

Yes Atonement and Co-crucifixion:
No Trinity: - Need I say more? Because you reject God's Triune Being, you make these other errors. The Trinity also means you are not God or gods.
Yes Distinction of God's 3 Persons:
Yes Premillennial and Rewards:
Yes God foreknows our free-choice:
Yes New City and New Earth:
No Once-saved-always-saved: - Having no faith to believe God can give eternal life at new birth and that we know we have received God's life.
Yes Overcomers and non-overcomers in Christ:
Yes Restoration of Creation in Six Days:
Yes God has infinite foreknowledge of eternity:
Yes Tripartite Woman and Man:
No Hell is an eternal separation from God: - The worm will not die in Hell
No Baptism of water and the Holy Spirit: - Rejecting God's teaching of coming out of the world. Jesus was baptized in the Holy Spirit.
No The 66 Books are the Complete Word of God: - Jesus is the 66 books, the Word. Adding to the Word will be punished, Rev. 22.18,19 (e.g. adding the book of Enoch or any parts of it).
Yes Biblical tongues are languages only:
Yes Laying on of Hands:
Yes Women Apostles & Mary was Born into Sin:
Yes Apostles appoint Elders for a Biblical locality:
No Agree with Apostles using the Meeting Place Finder: - Not accepting the agreement of the Apostles to do something.

You may consider your scribe to be a false prophet and a false teacher. Pretty site though. Pretty and Petty are closely related. Go over what I said about elohims, which were speaking of men ruling on earth over peoples to point to the Son of God who is the ultimate ruler. If men could be called gods, then so can be His Son. In the millennium there will be rewards to reign. There is no ruling over peoples in eternity future for rewards are done away after the millennium thereby rendering us not gods, but pillars in the new city. The natural extension of this heresy of being gods is the idea of mormonism that they will be ruling over peoples on planets, or something else equally bizarre and unholy.

Do you see how it is wrong to call yourself gods for it is merely in the reigning sense that is used to point to the Son of God (when people were accusing Him for this terminology, then He answers He is the Son of Man), for that was its usage, not as reigning mormon peers. Take not that step into the fire where you do not belong! If we were to be gods God would have said it more than just the example of leaders of the people to point to the fact that if they were so called, then certainly it is apropos to call the Christ the Son of God.

This phrase is a problem, Come Let Us Reason Together, because it is of the soul, with no reference the spirit's leading in intuitive conscience communing with the Lord where Spirit makes contact with spirit. We commune through the spirit, not first in the reasoning of the soul. The mind's purpose is to aid the spirit as the spirit is to be our guiding principle. She is the mistress, whereas the soul is the steward and the body the servant. We always listen to the mistress for she gives us wonderful joy and peace in the Holy of Holies. The Holy Place comes second, and the Outer Court comes third.

Why is it that people say they should reason, but then when you reason with them they stop reasoning? It is because their reasoning was wrong to begin with and they don't want to repent.

Recommendation: Since you can't repent as you are now, because your head is too stimulated, I recommend deeper work is needed to divide your spirit, soul and body in God's necessary redemptive design so that your reasoning is clear. If the inner man is not right, how could think thinking ever be?