• Apostles and Elders Organizing the Church RSS Feed

    by Published on 10-03-2016 02:06 AM     Number of Views: 146 
    1. Categories:
    2. Spiritual Christian Life

    When I read this I am left in awe!

    Man was to destroy all the powers of Satan and be crowned with glory and honor that he might rule over God’s creation. But man had fallen and was thus not able to rule. It was for this cause, then, that the Lord Jesus came. He took upon himself man’s body of flesh and blood and became the “last Adam” (1 Cor. 15.45b).

    Continuing with Hebrews 2, we next read this: “that by the grace of God he [Jesus] should taste of death for every man” (v.9b). The phrase “every man” in Greek can be translated “every thing.” The Lord Jesus was born as a man and accomplished the work of redemption—yet not just for men but for all created beings, except the angels. Hence He occupies two positions. In the first, towards God, Jesus is the original man, the man whom God has foreordained; in the second, towards men, He is the Saviour. On the one hand, the Lord Jesus is the man whom God had foreordained to have dominion and to overturn Satan. And this man is now seated on the throne! For hallelujah! this man has already overthrown the powers of Satan. This is the man of God’s expectation and possession. On the other hand, this man is also related to us. We have sinned and fallen, but God set forth Jesus to be a propitiation. He not only became our propitiation, He also was judged for all created things. This fact is demonstrated by what happened at Jesus’ crucifixion with the renting of the veil in the Temple sanctuary (see Mark 15.38). For according to Hebrews 10.20 that veil points to the flesh of the Lord Jesus. On the sanctuary veil had been embroidered cherubim who were representative of created things. So that inherent in the flesh of our Lord Jesus were all created things. And on the day the Lord died, the veil, we are told, was rent into two from top to bottom. Naturally, the cherubim embroidered on the veil were also rent. Hence, in the death of the Lord Jesus, all created things were judged. He has thus tasted death not only for every man but also for every thing.

    Reading further in Hebrews 2, we learn this: “For it became him [God] for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory” (v.10a).

    Isn't it amazing that I know I am one of His sons because I accepted who Jesus is, while many refuse or reject Him; thus, they could not be called "sons of God".
    by Published on 09-14-2016 08:10 AM     Number of Views: 203 
    1. Categories:
    2. Dividing Spirit, Soul, Body

    The Spiritual Man, CFP, Vol. 3, Part 10 THE BODY, Ch. 3, by Watchman Nee

    WE NOTED earlier how our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. What arrests our attention is the special emphasis the Apostle Paul gives to the body. The common concept is that the life of Christ is for our spirit, not for our body. Few realize that the salvation of God reaches to the second after He gives life to the first. Had God desired that His Spirit live solely in our spirit so that only it might be benefited, the Apostle would simply need to have said that “your spirit is the temple of God” and not mention the body at all. By now, however, we should understand that the meaning of our body as the temple of the Holy Spirit is more than its being the recipient of a special privilege. It likewise means being a channel for effective power. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit strengthens our inner man, enlightens the eyes of our heart and, makes our body healthy.

    We have also noted how the Holy Spirit makes alive this mortal frame of ours. To wait until we die before He raises us up is not necessary, for even now He gives life to our mortal body. In the future He will raise from the dead this corruptible body, but today He quickens the mortal body. The power of His life permeates every cell of our being so that we may experience His power and life in the body.

    No more need we look upon our outer shell as a miserable prison, for we can see in it the life of God being expressed. We now can experience in a deeper way that word which declares that “it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.” Christ has presently become the source of life to us. He lives in us today as He once lived in the flesh. We can thus apprehend more fully the implication of His pronouncement: “I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly” (John 10.10). This more abundant life suffices additionally for every requirement of our body. Paul exhorts Timothy to “take hold of the eternal life” (1 Tim. 6. 12); surely Timothy is not here in need of eternal life that he may be saved. Is not this life that which Paul subsequently describes in the same chapter as “the life which is life indeed” (v.19) ? Is he not urging Timothy to experience eternal life today in overcoming every phenomenon of death?

    We would hasten to inform our readers that we have not lost sight of the fact that our body is indeed a mortal one; even so, we who are the Lord’s can verily possess the power of that life which swallows up death. In our body are two forces in action: death and life: on the one side is consumption which brings us nigh to death; on the other side is replenishment through food and rest and these support life. Now extravagant consumption weakens the body because the force of death is too powerful; but by the same token excessive supply reveals signs of congestion because the force of life is too strong. The best policy is to maintain these two forces of life and death in balance. Beyond this, we should understand that the weariness which believers often experience in their body is in many respects distinct from that of ordinary people. Their consumption is more than physical. Because they walk with the Lord, bear the burdens of others, sympathize with the brethren, work for God, intercede before Him, battle the powers of darkness, and pommel their body to subdue it, food and rest alone are insufficient to replenish the loss of strength in their physical frame. This explains in a measure why many believers, who before the call to service were healthy, find themselves physically feeble not long afterwards. Our bodily strength cannot cope with the demands of spiritual life, work, and war. Combat with sin, sinners, and the evil spirits saps our vitality. Solely natural resources are inadequate to supply our bodily needs. We must depend on the life of Christ, for this alone can sustain us. Should we rely on material food and nourishment and drugs we will be committing a serious blunder. Only the life of the Lord Jesus more than sufficiently meets all the physical requirements for our spiritual life, work, and war. He alone furnishes us the necessary vitality to grapple with sin and Satan. Once the believer has truly appreciated what spiritual warfare is and how to wrestle in the spirit with the enemy, he will begin to realize the preciousness of the Lord Jesus as life to his body.

    Every Christian ought to see the reality of his union with the Lord. He is the vine and we the branches. As branches are united with the trunk, so are we united with the Lord. Through union with the trunk the branches receive the flow of life. Does not our union with the Lord produce the same results? If we restrict this union to the spirit, faith will rise up to protest. Since the Lord calls us to demonstrate the reality of our union with Him, He wishes us to believe and to receive the flow of His life to our spirit, soul, and body. Should our fellowship be cut off, the spirit most assuredly will lose its peace, but so will the body be denied its health. Constant abiding signifies that His life continually is filling our spirit and flowing to our body. Apart from a participation in the life of the Lord Jesus there can be neither healing nor health. The call of God today is for His children to experience a deeper union with the Lord Jesus.

    Let us therefore recognize that, though phenomena do occur to us in the body, they are in truth spiritual matters. To receive divine healing and to have our strength increased are spiritual and not purely physical experiences, although they do take place in the body. Such experiences are nothing less than the life of the Lord Jesus being manifested in our mortal frame. As in the past the life of the Lord caused this dead spirit of ours to be resurrected, so now it make alive this mortal body. God wants us to learn how to let the resurrected, glorious and all-victorious life of Christ be expressed in every portion of our being. He calls us to renew our vigor daily and hourly by Him. This is precisely our true life. Even though our body is still animated by our natural soul life, we no longer live by it because we have trusted in the life of the Son of God Who infuses energy into our members far more abundantly than all which the soul life could impart. We lay great stress on this “life.” In all our spiritual experiences this mysterious yet wonderful “life” enters into us abundantly. God desires to lead us into possessing that life of Christ as our strength.

    The Word of God is the life of our body: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” (Matt. 4.4). This substantiates the thought that God’s Word is able to support our body. Naturally speaking man must live by bread, but when the Word of God emits its power man can live by it too. Herein do we behold both the natural and the supernatural way of living. God does not say that henceforth we need not eat; He simply informs us that His Word can supply us with life which food cannot. When food fails to produce or to sustain the desirable effect in our body, His Word can give us what we need. Some live by bread alone, some by it and the Word of God. Bread sometimes fails, but God’s Word never changes.,
    God hides His life in His Word. Inasmuch as He is life. so also is His Word. Should we view God’s Word as a teaching, creed or moral standard, it shall not prove very effective in us. No, God’s Word must be digested and united with us in the same manner as is food. Hungry believers take it in as their food. If they receive it with faith the Word becomes their life. God claims His Word is able to sustain our life. When natural nourishment fails we can believe God according to His Word. Then shall we perceive Him not only as life to our spirit but as life to our body as well. Christians nowadays experience great loss in not noticing how bountifully God has provided for our earthly tent. We confine God’s promises to the inner spirit and overlook their application to the outer flesh. But do we realize our physical requirement is no less needful than that of the spiritual?
    by Published on 08-27-2016 12:17 AM     Number of Views: 193 
    1. Categories:
    2. Dividing Spirit, Soul, Body

    The Ark of the Covenant in Our Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Hallas
    Quote Originally Posted by Parture
    If the Bible says it and I sense it by the Holy Spirit and the body of Christ agrees then it must be true.
    Do you think the "Holy Spirit", would have given you this sensing of these exact things, if you had never read or were told about these words in this Book? I have always been curious about why you never hear of this particular god, planting thoughts into non-Christian peoples minds that match, in any way, the words in the bible. Isn't that a curious thing? It seems to me that all revelations of biblical knowledge, come only to people who know it's contents first. Would you care to explain that to us non-Christians.
    When I came to Christ I never read the Bible, nor did I own a Bible. That's interesting. It was only after I was born-again that I began to read God's word.

    God is love and indwells His loved ones, not those who do not love Him. That's not to say the Holy Spirit can't work upon other people, for He certainly does (called prevenient grace, and common grace Rom. 1.20). But the intimate relationship of having His uncreated life in us is to grow in Him and walk in His ways, eventually reaching a state of complete selflessness and sinlessness. Satan works from outer to inner, but God works from inner to outer. So be careful of "so-called" planting thoughts into the mind of our outerman they are not always of God. Non-Christians receive God's suggestions that draws them to Christ. He will use environment and all kinds of means. His ways are greater than our ways.

    The Holy Spirit is always working even in those who are not saved, but the Holy Spirit doesn't indwell the spirit (innerman) of a person unless they are born-again. This is seen in the Temple. The outer court represents our body. It is where Jesus died on the altar. The Holy Place with its utensils represent the functions of our soul (mind, will and emotion). Within the Holy Place is the Holy of Holies which represents your spirit. Nobody was allowed enter except the High Priest once a year.

    When Jesus died on the cross the veil was rent between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies. From that point on those that were saved or born-again can directly commune with God by having access to the Holy of Holies where the Holy Spirit comes down upon the mercy seat and indwells the spirit of a believer. Inside the Holy of Holies is the law in the ark which judges according to God's will in our conscience. The blood is sprinkled upon the mercy seat where God receives our worship (commune with God).

    “My conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 9.1). Heb. 9.4 states that the Ark contained "the golden pot that had manna (represents communion), and Aaron's rod that budded (represents intuition), and the tablets of the covenant (represent conscience)." Rev. 11.19 says the prophet saw God's temple in heaven opened, "and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple." Such is an even clearer picture of how our spirit, soul and body work when Jesus returns.

    "The word of God is quick and powerful, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, discerning the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4.12). God wants your spirit, soul and body divided to not confuse your tripartite nature to walk by your spirit primarily and not your outerman of soul and body ("soulical body" 1 Cor. 15.44 original). Joints point to movement and marrow points to our senses.

    If you get lost in The Spiritual Man all will be made clear.



    by Published on 08-02-2016 05:20 PM     Number of Views: 236 
    1. Categories:
    2. Hell,
    3. Atheist, Agnostic, Agtheist,
    4. Universalism,
    5. Spiritual Warfare

    This will be interesting to see if anyone answers this thread.

    Let's say you know someone who claims to believe in Jesus but never gives the gospel of salvation to anyone, not even in the slightest. There is no compassion or empathy or concern by them for others who are perishing. They never go to Church. It's as if Jesus does not exist even though they claim to believe in Him when challenged. If everyone who was saved was like this there would be no Church.

    It's as if they know what we want to hear from them to believe in Jesus. But they are not willing to go so far as to say people who reject Christ are going to Hell even though Jesus spoke on Hell more than anyone and the gospel of salvation is clear if you don't accept Christ you will go to Hell. That's the gospel, or at least part of the gospel.

    They have never read the Bible. So they could care less Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish [not go to Hell], but have everlasting life" (John 3.16).

    On top of that, prior to you yourself being saved, that fake Christian never brought up Christ even once. And even today they still don't. You would have to start the discussion always. You may have known them for decades. They may have accused you of being a "fanatic" when you first gave your life to Christ. How in the world is that accepting a new member of the body of Christ? Now all of a sudden years after you were saved they claim they themselves were saved all along. Then why did they never bring Christ up? I have never known such evil before!

    This same person also lashes out or gets angry every time you call them out for not being a Christian because they don't accept the Jesus who sends people to Hell, particularly family members and close relatives who reject Christ. Does that not strike you as a self-centered faith? All things center on them, because by virtue of them claiming to be saved everyone in their sphere of influence is saved, but outside that sphere others are not necessarily saved. Total lunacy!

    I am sure there is a better name for it, but I call this Fake Pseudo-Universalism Christianity because everyone is saved in their sphere of influence even if there are those in the sphere who reject Christ or call themselves atheists, agnostic, deist or adamantly state they don't believe in religion. I always thought true religion is true and false religion is false...but for them all religion is false. The center-man or center-woman declares anti-religious people are saved as well since they live next door or near to them.

    What kind of evil salvation would that be if people outside your sphere of influence are not saved, but in your sphere everyone is saved? They are playing God. If they are already saved, no wonder why you don't need to give them the gospel! So what happens is they don't hear the gospel of salvation because this centerpiece person deems them automatically saved. Therefore, they end up perishing never hearing the gospel. How can someone be so selfish to cater to one's own feelings like this at the expense of others? It's all for the purpose of satisfying their own flesh to pretend others are protected as long as they remain within the sphere of this self-centered person. They aim to draw people to themselves like a cult. It's totally selfish and self-serving, and this person makes themselves the center of it all.

    They don't want to hear anything negative that people are going to Hell for rejecting Christ so they reject the gospel of salvation and certainly don't share it with anyone. Because this turns people off to mention Hell they never mention Hell or the need of salvation from Hell. They turn into mini-Joel Osteen's. Something is definitely rotten here! They are themselves being negative because they mock Jesus. Jesus died for people. To claim someone is saved even though they reject Jesus has the false appearance of being positive, but it is really negative because it mocks the cross of Jesus Christ and the shedding His precious blood for forgiveness of sins. If someone is saved anyway then Jesus died for no reason. If Jesus died for no reason is that not negative? God wasted His blood. It is rejecting God's very plan of salvation. How can anything be more negative than that?

    Crazy world eh? The crap we have to put with in the world by false Christians is insanely disturbing. Might I also add Christians need to be "wiser" towards men because non-Christians are always on the lookout to make the Christian look bad. Make no mistake about it! I have experienced this many times. You know someone is not a Christian when you mention the full gospel of salvation and they produce their outburst on queue and lash out like in this case study.

    by Published on 07-27-2016 12:22 AM     Number of Views: 1199 
    1. Categories:
    2. 2023 to 2030

    The 120th Jubilee was 2015-16 from Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015 to Elul 29, 2016. 2016-17 is the first year of 7 years of plenty to 2022-23. What follows are 7 years of famine (the Tribulation) from 2023-24 to 2029-30. From Feast of Trumpets Sept. 16, 2023 there are 2,520 days (7 x 360) to Tisha B'Av Aug. 8, 2030. Tisha B'Av was when the 1st and 2nd Temples were destroyed. Jesus returns to reign in the 3rd Temple.

    Construction on the 3rd Temple must begin by 2020 so it is completed by Passover 2024 because it takes 2300 days for the Temple to be cleansed (Dan. 8.14) from Passover April 23, 2024 to Tisha B'Av Aug. 8, 2030. For 30 days more to the 1290th day (Dan. 12.11) Jesus judges the nations. 45 more days to the 1335th day (Dan. 12.12)--a few days after Simchat Torah Oct. 20, 2030 (final feast of the year)--He sets up Israel as the center of all nations.

    This agrees with the "sign of the Son of Man" (Matt. 24.30) asteroid Apophis April 13, 2029 near the end of the Tribulation. It comes within satellite distance of earth; last time an asteroid this size hit earth was 80,000 years ago. "If therefore thou shalt not watch...thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Rev. 3.3). If you are not watchful you can't know when Jesus returns. When Jesus returns all Christians will know it so this verse refers to prophesying when Jesus returns.

    PARTIAL RAPTURE. If we are not "watchful and pray always we will not be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass [the Tribulation], and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36) "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven, before the first angel sounds the beginning of the Tribulation (8.7). If "you keep the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial [the Tribulation], that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10). The first rapture is according to readiness. "Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken [raptured], and one is left: two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken [raptured], and one is left. Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh" (Matt. 24.40-42). Both the "taken" and the "left" are believers in Christ, but sadly not all Christians keep the word of His patience, conduct of Matt. 5-7, are prayerful, and watchful so they are not ready to be received up (raptured alive) in the first rapture.
    by Published on 06-30-2016 03:32 AM     Number of Views: 235 
    1. Categories:
    2. Primary Verses

    Early Creedal Texts by Gary R. Habermas

    The New Testament contains dozens of very early texts that actually pre-date the epistles in which they were recorded. They may basically be thought of as the answer to the exciting question, “Of what did the very earliest apostolic and other preaching look like before even a single New Testament book was ever written?” The earliest forms of these texts were oral, where they usually served the purpose of briefly summarizing the essentials of Christianity (usually the factual essence of the Gospel data) including the deity of Jesus Christ, and could easily be memorized, even by those who were illiterate.

    Amazingly, scholars generally agree on the location of these traditions or creeds. These texts are recognized in many ways, but one of the clearest is when the New Testament writer explicitly tells us that he is repeating an early teaching, passing on a tradition, and so on. The chief examples include 1 Cor. 11:23-26; 15:3; 2 Thes. 2:15; 1 Tim. 1:15; 3:1; 4:9; 2 Tim. 2:11; Titus 3:8; Heb. 2:2-3. Others are identified by linguistic, syntactical, cadence, and other textual hints, and often concern the subject of Jesus occupying his heavenly place on the right side of God’s throne. Major examples include those in Rom. 1:3-4; 4:25; 5:8; 10:9; 1 Cor. 8:6; Phil. 2:6-11, and Heb. 1:3. Cf. many others such as Eph. 1:20; Col. 1:15-20; 3:1; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 3:16; Heb. 1:1; 1:13; 8:1; 12:2; 1 Pet. 1:21; 2:21; 3:18; 3:22.

    While a bit different, it is widely agreed that there are also a number of brief sermon summaries within the Book of Acts which, like the other creedal materials, are much older than the book in which they appear. The most-commonly mentioned candidates for these sermon segments are in Acts 1:21-22; 2:22-36; 3:13-16; 4:8-10; 5:29-32; 10:39-43; 13:28-31; 17:1-3; 17:30-31. Those speaking of Jesus’ deity include Acts 2:33, 36; 5:31.

    Among other crucial topics, these early creeds often applied the loftiest titles of deity to Jesus Christ. Like Acts 2:36; Rom. 1:3-4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 8:6; 11:23; and Phil. 2:6-11. Intriguingly, this entire subject arose from studies by critical New Testament scholars rather than from evangelicals. This is one of those rare subjects where older studies are often seen as the most authoritative ones, such as what is often proclaimed as the classic work: Oscar Cullmann, The Earliest Christian Confessions, trans. by J.K.S. Reid (London: Lutterworth, 1943). Other major studies include Cullmann, “The Tradition” (59-99) and other essays in The Early Church, ed. by A.J.B. Higgins (London: SCM, 1956); C.H. Dodd, The Apostolic Preaching and its Developments (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1936; Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1980); Dodd, “The Primitive Catechism and the Sayings of Jesus,” in New Testament Essays: Studies in Memory of Thomas Walter Manson, 1893-1958, edited by A.J.B. Higgins (Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1959), 106-118; Joachim Jeremias, The Eucharistic Words of Jesus, trans. by Norman Perrin (London: SCM, 1966).

    Agnostic New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman both freely and often dates the earliest of these creeds to the 30s AD, sometimes within just 1-2 years after the crucifixion! Bart D. Ehrman, Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth (New York: Harper Collins, 2012), see pages 22, 27, 92-93, 97, 109-113, 130-132, 141, 144-145, 155-158, 164, 170-173, 232, 249-251, 254, 260-263; cf. 289-291.
    by Published on 01-27-2016 04:26 PM     Number of Views: 342 
    1. Categories:
    2. LDS/Mormons,
    3. Atheist, Agnostic, Agtheist,
    4. Universalism

    FairMormon.Org

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael LeCheminant
    These are my opinions and do not necessarily represent FairMormon or the LDS church.

    In monotheism of Christianity God was alone from everlasting and nothing beside God (no nature/matter/intelligences/material/etc), but not in Mormonism.
    This statement is not Biblical. Do you have a scriptural reference for why you believe this? When you say that God was alone, do you mean the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, or all three of them? Genesis chapter 1 says "let us make man in our image." The ancient Jews believed (as Mormons do) that in the beginning there was a council of gods.
    The Jews did not believe in a council of gods. They believed there were no such thing as gods, they were just idols made up by men. Elohim is the Trinity; if not then simply speaking of majesty.

    The law of the conservation of mass states that mass cannot be created or destroyed. This fits with the Mormon belief that God organized existing matter to create the universe. Some essence of our being has always existed.
    The law of conservation of mass allows for God who is infinitely great to bring things into being from Himself so nature did not always need to exist as you surmised. No essence of your being ever existed before God created you. By placing yourself alongside God feeds pride and debases God to a lesser being so you don't receive salvation from God who is optimally great.

    Mormons believe that all people are spirit children of God and that we lived with him before we were born. I find this to be a wonderful teaching that makes sense to me as well as a number of non-Mormons I have talked to, and it is hinted at several times in the Bible, yet no other church believes it. You are correct that Mormon belief is different from traditional Christianity. That is why we send missionaries throughout the world to share our message with everyone we can.
    It's never hinted at in the Bible we lived with God before being born. It's simply the romance of the gods such as Zeus and the gods of eastern religions. It's a way to exalt self. Whereas Christianity is monotheistic, that is to say, God was alone from everlasting before time and space in His 3 Persons. As the Bible says there is none beside Him, and no gods after Him. What you are doing to yourself is rejecting the atonement of Christ because you have turned Jesus into a lesser being who can never save. Only the uncreated Creator has that power to redeem. Since you are sending missionaries out, you are sending men to their doom and others. And isn't that Satan's ultimate objective? The Church did not disappear for 18 centuries.

    And there was nothing beside God before time and space.
    I believe that God is a physical being who interacts with others, and therefore he must exist in time and space. It makes no sense to me that it could be otherwise.
    Since the Bible says God the Father is spirit and that you can't see Him then He is not a physical being. He can and does exist outside of time and space in the Trinity. This is not so hard to understand as you think. Think of yourself as a stick figure on a piece of paper. He can see 2 dimensions. A cube is 3 dimensions. So when the cube is presented, the stick figure can only see one side or a square. He doesn't see the full cube (he can't) because the cube is in 3 dimensions. So it is with the 3 Persons of the Trinity. There is the other problem posed of your faith that if God the Father was once a man who became a God and the God that created that man was once a man, and this goes on ad infinitum in the past, you have the same problem atheists have because if there was this infinite regress of cause and effects, you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. So nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator, the Trinity, is whom we call God. Mormons are really supernatural atheists.

    And Jesus created all things, being God (John 1.1) in the Trinity.
    I agree that Jesus is God and created the world under the direction of his Father.
    Jesus didn't just create the world, He created all things. He didn't even create only on the instruction of the Father for John 1.3 says "All things were made by him." Always remember, you redefine what God is so you don't agree that Jesus is God. God is not multiple beings. That's if anything polytheism. God is one Being. That's traditional monotheism even in other faiths. Evil the Devil knows God is One Being. There are not some things Jesus did not create. He created all things so there cannot be these things you call material/matter/intelligences that always existed alongside God.

    So how can the Jesus of Mormonism be the Jesus of Christianity?
    The Jesus of Mormonism is God incarnate who was born to the virgin Mary, worked many mighty miracles such as healing the sick and raising the dead, taught many important things such as those found in the Sermon on the Mount, and then suffered for all of our sins, was crucified on the cross, buried in a tomb, and was the first to be resurrected. He is our Savior and Redeemer and the Messiah. Is this this the same Jesus that you believe in?
    The reason why your Jesus is not the same Jesus because you redefine all these terms, but don't tell people until later. Jesus God incarnate is not a separate being from the Father or the Spirit. They are One Being in 3 Persons, co-equal like Phil. 2 says, co-inherent, one substances, each Person distinct, but not separate. Whereas your incarnation is relegated to being something alongside God in the eternity of the past. Surely you can see God alone from everlasting in His 3 Persons is all-knowing, all-powerful and everywhere present when He cannot be if He is limited by material/matter/intelligences that always existed also and if He was not alone before time and space. See the problem? It's not solvable because Mormonism is just a cult that came 18 centuries later. And so you are receiving an atonement that lacks the all-inclusiveness and effectiveness in Christ.

    Lastly, in Christianity when a person is born-again they can never go to Hell, but in Mormonism after being saved you can still go to Hell as an apostate Mormon and your works determine which heaven you go to.
    Most Christians do not believe in the Calvinist teaching of "once saved, always saved" (perseverance of the Saints), and there is no Biblical evidence for this, so Mormons reject it as do many other Christians. Only a certain segment of Protestants believe this. I'm curious as to your reason for believing it. Just because a person starts on the path toward God does not mean that they can't choose to leave that path and reject God. I have seen this happen countless times.
    Christians are not Calvinists. We know that Calvinists are going to Hell. But you are overlooking OSAS that is not Calvinistic, but OSAS Arminian. In other words, instead of being once saved always saved irresistibly a person can be once saved always saved by giving their lives to the God who keeps, for we don't even have in our own strength once saved to keep ourselves. saved. So John 10.28 says, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." As an aside Calvinists are confused because they teach "perseverance" which is works; they are suppose to believe in irresistible works. What you are teaching is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, that great harlot of religious Rome that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications. Roman Catholics are Remonstrants. But the Bible teaches salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast. So there are not different heavens to go to based on your works. What you have seen countless times is a person who was never saved to begin with because if it was real it would have remained. Christians are not Remonstrants like you and the RCC, but nor are we Calvinists. We are the ones who were killed by the Roman Catholic Church and by that Protestant Pope of Geneva John Calvin. We are a "little flock" (Luke 12.32). The RCC is a great harlot, Mormons are a little harlot. Technically though Mormons are not even in Christendom. Many in Christendom are not saved, but Mormons are not even in that sphere as they are so aberrant.

    Mormons have a very different concept of hell as compared to traditional Christianity, and I believe that virtually all people who have every lived on the earth will eventually go to heaven. The Bible makes it very clear that we should live our lives according to the commandments God has given us. As we do so, we will become more like Christ and we will be blessed and rewarded as we follow him. That does not mean that we can save ourselves through our works.
    I don't believe most Mormons believe in Universalism for they do believe that Hell is a place of eternal separation from God even though in Mormonism very few go there. This speaks to the low standards in Mormonism if almost everyone is saved. But you believe in Universalism which has major problems such as you will be sharing a bunk bed with Hitler, Stalin, Mao, rapists and other sadistic evil people who never repent. Firstly, the Bible teaches there is no rest day or night forever in Hell where the worm never dies. Secondly, free will is not truly free if you don't have the free choice to reject God. Once resurrected a person will not change their mind. That's why I have never met anyone past the age of 40 (though there may be a few) who ever gave their life to Christ because they had more than enough time. Before you can receive this new life and work in that new life, you need to be born-again. The only way for you to be born-again is if you accept who Jesus truly is and receive what He did for you. You don't actually receive what He did for you turn Him into a false Christ and a lesser being which, of course, is what you have done.

    But in Christianity, works don't save or give you a standing in the pillars of the New City.
    I don't understand this statement. Maybe you can clarify.
    After the millennial kingdom, rewards are done away with. Everyone will be where they belong in the New City so it would be unjust to have multiple different heavens as in Mormonism. It reeks survival of the fittest. There is only one heaven and Rev. 21 heaven and earth come together in the New City on the New Earth. Period. There is one thing I haven't told you about, about who lives outside the New City on the New Earth who go through the 12 gates to receive renewal from the Tree of Life, but I will save that for another time.

    Works in Christianity only are rewarded when Jesus returns to reign over the nations for 1000 years.
    I agree that judgment day will occur after the second coming of Christ during or after his Millennial reign. But I have a question for you. If you believe that you are going to heaven, and you believe that you will be rewarded for your works, as you state here, do you believe that different people will receive different levels of rewards? If so, doesn't that mean that there will be different levels of heaven? Earlier you criticized Mormons for believing this, but it sounds like you must believe the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Judgment Seat is for Christians when He returns. The Great White Throne is after the millennial kingdom and judges the unsaved. Paul distinguishes spiritual and carnal Christians. Spiritual Christians receive the reward of returning (Jude 14,15) with Christ to reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26,27) for 1000 years (20.4-6). Think of that reward being presidents, prime ministers, ministers, ombudsmen, even head of businesses because knowledge is not as important as conscience. A better conscience in charge makes things run better. The millennial kingdom is not heaven. This is why the millennial kingdom is called the "time of recompense".

    I can't get Mormonism to agree with Christianity.
    If by Christianity you mean traditional Christianity of the Catholic, Orthodox, or one of the many Protestant varieties, then I would absolutely agree with you! Mormonism is not the same as traditional, creedal Christianity. We make the claim that we are more similar to the original Christianity as taught by Jesus and his apostles than any other church, and there is much evidence to support this view. We are a restoration of the ancient church in these latter days, and since we definitely believe in Jesus Christ, we definitely consider ourselves to be Christians.
    Think of an orthodox Christianity that sticks with the Bible, after all the Bible says don't say "I of Cephas" (denominationalism), "I of Apollos", don't even say "I of Jesus" (congregationalism). In the Bible the church is a locality of believers in a region of church localities so you see the church of Jerusalem in the churches of Judea, the church of Antioch in the churches Syria, or the church of Dallas in the churches of Texas. If someone asks what church you belong to, speaking to Christians, say you belong to the church <your town> in the churches of <your state or province>. Even where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name. This treats the church as a locality responsible unto itself.

    As aberrant as the Roman Catholics and Protestants are in all their varieties they are still closer to traditional orthodox Christianity than Mormon will ever be because they are Monotheistic. Mormons are the most polytheistic and henotheistic religion on the planet. I know you want to think you are Christian, but you are so far away. You are very much like atheists, but call yourselves supernatural atheists. Mormons are not restoring anything, you're just a cult headed up by a con artist Joseph Smith. The Church has always been fine the past 20 centuries. It did not disappear. And think how evil that would be that people could not get saved for 18 centuries. You definitely do not believe in Jesus Christ because Jesus created all things and only the uncreated Creator can atone for sins; anything else is insufficient and deficient. Humble yourself to the One True God who's power and authority in being alone from everlasting with nothing beside Him, no gods, nothing. By the way Rev. 17.16 says a dirty nuclear bomb will blow up the Vatican the smallest city in the world.

    Therefore, Mormons must be wrong about thinking that the Church disappeared for 18 centuries. That would be crazy since people couldn't get saved for 18 centuries.
    The church did not disappear for 18 centuries. The priesthood authority to perform saving ordinances was lost, and some doctrines were corrupted, but there are many, many people who lived during that time who will receive salvation. I'm curious what your belief is regarding what a person must do to be saved. You seem to think that the Church is necessary for salvation, and I agree with you, but many evangelical Protestants believe that confessing Christ is all that is required. If it's important to have a church, how do you know which church it should be?
    There were no doctrines that were corrupted. That's what a cult would say. I can help you with each one you hold precious. The Bible remains intact. You are actually saying the Church disappeared because the body of Christ is a royal priesthood and for 18 centuries you claim it was without priesthood. If you are not a royal priesthood, you're not saved. All believers are a royal priesthood. You're trying to Judaize Christianity by having an intermediary other than Jesus. Saving ordinances do not exist, for anyone can come to Christ without your alleged ordinances. Baptism does not save; rather, baptism is symbolic of burial and resurrection with Christ and coming out of the world up out of the water with Jesus. It is performed with or without water and it is experiential and for service having a sense you no longer belong to this world like a sojourner. All you need to be saved is to accept Jesus so nobody is without excuse. The church is for fellowship and to draw people to Christ. The solution for you is to relinquish the idea you need big glorious buildings with the Pentagram on them calling down the power of Satan, without any crosses, and just accept walking to the mall, or at the gym, or perhaps a small gather with friends on your street that there the church. In the OT the groups broken up into counted as 50 individuals. This does not preclude 3000 or 5000 together at one time, but it is less optimal.

    You say that it would be crazy if people couldn't be saved for 18 centuries, and I would agree with you. But I have a question. What do you think about all of the people who lived for several thousand years before Jesus was born? What about all of the people who have lived who have never even heard of Jesus? Do they have any chance of being saved? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church I know of that claims that every single person will have a full and equal opportunity for salvation, regardless of when or where they lived. Most Christians believe that all of those people are going to hell, but I don't see a just and merciful God doing that. He wants us all to return to live with him forever.
    Firstly, those who were looking to their Messiah as their suffering servant whose hands would be pierced in Is. 53 are no doubt saved. But someone on a remote island who never heard of Jesus, yet rejected the idols worshiped as gods, and believed in the God of the mountains and stars surely if he was presented Christ would accept Him whole heartedly. As you see the Father you see the Son, and as you see the Son you see the Father for with the Holy Spirit they are the Trinity. Father is I AM and Alpha and Omega, and Jesus said the same about Himself. Test yourself. Ask yourself how would the word of God need to be worded to convince you in the Triune God? I find that the Bible expresses it so many ways in so many places it would be overly redundant to do more than what the Bible has already done to make the point. Hell is eternally rejecting the Triune God, because those who reject the Triune God can't be in heaven since there is no sin corrupting people with a lie and not humbling yourself to God with the truth. You want to think Christians believe people who receive common grace and have not heard the special grace of the gospel are going to Hell, but that's not what we believe. A merciful God is no a God who is going to send you to different heavens based on your works, nor is God merciful in sending you to Hell after you were saved. As Dave Hunt said, that would be a weird kind of salvation if you get saved, lose it, get it back and lose it again. God will just throw the whole of Mormons in Hell, and actually, you lock yourself in Hell from the inside because you admit you will never accept the Triune God. So be it.

    But the Bible says Hell can't come against the Church even though Mormons think it had.
    Let me ask you a question, Troy. As a Protestant, do you believe that the Catholic Church is the true church that Jesus established? If your answer is no, then that means that the original church must have become corrupted or changed, because the Catholic Church was the only church for many centuries. If your answer is yes, then why do you subscribe to Protestant beliefs that are different from the Catholic Church? My point is that both Mormons and Protestants believe that the original church fell into apostasy. Protestants believe that they can get back to the original truth by correctly interpreting the Bible, but which of the hundreds of Protestant interpretations is correct? Mormons believe that the only way to return to the authority and purity of the original church was for God to restore it through a prophet and through continuing revelation. I would invite you to seriously consider this possibility.

    Mike L.
    You're misreading the Bible. In Rev. 2 & 3 we see a review of the problems the Church will go through for the past 20 centuries. The first church which was in the first century is Ephesus. They lost their "first love". The 2nd century church was called Smyrna. God told them to hold on for 10 days more as they were heavily martyred. The 3rd century church was called Pergamum. Their mistake was marrying church and state under Constantine. These 3 churches passed, but the next 4 after starting remained even to today. The 4th church period was Thyatira with Jezebel. She represents the beginning days of the Roman Catholic Church. She was a mustard seed but then turned into a great big tree with branches birds landed on like demons. The next church period was called Sardis representing revivals, but like a glass a water refilled with less and less water each time. It became in the 15th century reemphasizing justification by faith. Of course Calvinist latch onto that and call themselves Reformed which is a misnomer since the church doesn't need reforming. It had all the tools it always had. Luther was not saved because he was a Calvinist like Augustine before him. The 6th church period was Philadelphia, brotherly love. They were in the 1830s called the Brethren Movement. This was a name given to them, but in actuality they just wanted to be called Christians; that alone distinguished them as Philadelphia. And the last church period we are in now at the tail end of today is Laodicea. They are considered neither hot nor cold, just lukewarm. For a deeper study of the 7 church periods from a Christian who had the highest IQ in Christendom,


    Protestants do not believe the Church fell into apostasy, for the church has always been there as a church locality in a region of churches. With so much corruption go on around the world and in Christendom, the little flock remained true. Apostles are directly commissioned by God to appoint Elders of each church locality, and in turn those Elders approve the Elders of the many meeting places in a locality. The church is a locality of believers responsible unto itself and does not need a big show and pomp like Mormons. Praise the Lord!

    None of the 150 sects of the cult of Mormonism are true, but those who are truly born-again Christians have no denomination. Your approach is all wrong. You are making the same mistake Joseph Smith made when he asked what is the correct church? Satan gave him the wrong answer. When you begin to see the church as a locality of believers and they as a unit are responsible to themselves, you won't need to be part of the Mormon cult. You will try to make your church locality run better the race (first get saved though). You'll stop looking to the outer and walk in the inner sanctuary of your spirit receiving intuitive revelation in your spirit by the Holy Spirit. There are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers/Shepherds every century as workers for the Church. But the prophet you follow is a false prophet. The New Jerusalem was never built in west Missouri within a generation and your Jesus never returned in 1891 as Joseph Smith promised. Besides Missouri is only about 264 x 264 miles. The New Jerusalem in Rev. 21 is 1379 x 1379 miles. Smith didn't understand this. For him it was always about west vs. east. The center from where Jesus will reign is the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem for 1000 years, not America. The sooner you accept this the sooner you can begin to make progress in your life towards who Jesus really is.

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