Originally Posted by Michael LeCheminant
The Jews did not believe in a council of gods. They believed there were no such thing as gods, they were just idols made up by men. Elohim is the Trinity; if not then simply speaking of majesty.
The law of the conservation of mass states that mass cannot be created or destroyed. This fits with the Mormon belief that God organized existing matter to create the universe. Some essence of our being has always existed.
The law of conservation of mass allows for God who is infinitely great to bring things into being from Himself so nature did not always need to exist as you surmised. No essence of your being ever existed before God created you. By placing yourself alongside God feeds pride and debases God to a lesser being so you don't receive salvation from God who is optimally great.
Mormons believe that all people are spirit children of God and that we lived with him before we were born. I find this to be a wonderful teaching that makes sense to me as well as a number of non-Mormons I have talked to, and it is hinted at several times in the Bible, yet no other church believes it. You are correct that Mormon belief is different from traditional Christianity. That is why we send missionaries throughout the world to share our message with everyone we can.
It's never hinted at in the Bible we lived with God before being born. It's simply the romance of the gods such as Zeus and the gods of eastern religions. It's a way to exalt self. Whereas Christianity is monotheistic, that is to say, God was alone from everlasting before time and space in His 3 Persons. As the Bible says there is none beside Him, and no gods after Him. What you are doing to yourself is rejecting the atonement of Christ because you have turned Jesus into a lesser being who can never save. Only the uncreated Creator has that power to redeem. Since you are sending missionaries out, you are sending men to their doom and others. And isn't that Satan's ultimate objective? The Church did not disappear for 18 centuries.
And there was nothing beside God before time and space.
I believe that God is a physical being who interacts with others, and therefore he must exist in time and space. It makes no sense to me that it could be otherwise.
Since the Bible says God the Father is spirit and that you can't see Him then He is not a physical being. He can and does exist outside of time and space in the Trinity. This is not so hard to understand as you think. Think of yourself as a stick figure on a piece of paper. He can see 2 dimensions. A cube is 3 dimensions. So when the cube is presented, the stick figure can only see one side or a square. He doesn't see the full cube (he can't) because the cube is in 3 dimensions. So it is with the 3 Persons of the Trinity. There is the other problem posed of your faith that if God the Father was once a man who became a God and the God that created that man was once a man, and this goes on ad infinitum in the past, you have the same problem atheists have
because if there was this infinite regress of cause and effects, you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. So nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator, the Trinity, is whom we call God. Mormons are really supernatural atheists.
And Jesus created all things, being God (John 1.1) in the Trinity.
I agree that Jesus is God and created the world under the direction of his Father.
Jesus didn't just create the world, He created all things. He didn't even create only on the instruction of the Father for John 1.3 says "All things were made by him." Always remember, you redefine what God is so you don't agree that Jesus is God. God is not multiple beings. That's if anything polytheism. God is one Being. That's traditional monotheism even in other faiths. Evil the Devil knows God is One Being. There are not some things Jesus did not create. He created all things so there cannot be these things you call material/matter/intelligences that always existed alongside God.
So how can the Jesus of Mormonism be the Jesus of Christianity?
The Jesus of Mormonism is God incarnate who was born to the virgin Mary, worked many mighty miracles such as healing the sick and raising the dead, taught many important things such as those found in the Sermon on the Mount, and then suffered for all of our sins, was crucified on the cross, buried in a tomb, and was the first to be resurrected. He is our Savior and Redeemer and the Messiah. Is this this the same Jesus that you believe in?
The reason why your Jesus is not the same Jesus because you redefine all these terms, but don't tell people until later. Jesus God incarnate is not a separate being from the Father or the Spirit. They are One Being in 3 Persons, co-equal like Phil. 2 says, co-inherent, one substances, each Person distinct, but not separate. Whereas your incarnation is relegated to being something alongside God in the eternity of the past. Surely you can see God alone from everlasting in His 3 Persons is all-knowing, all-powerful and everywhere present when He cannot be if He is limited by material/matter/intelligences that always existed also and if He was not alone before time and space. See the problem? It's not solvable because Mormonism is just a cult that came 18 centuries later. And so you are receiving an atonement that lacks the all-inclusiveness and effectiveness in Christ.
Lastly, in Christianity when a person is born-again they can never go to Hell, but in Mormonism after being saved you can still go to Hell as an apostate Mormon and your works determine which heaven you go to.
Most Christians do not believe in the Calvinist teaching of "once saved, always saved" (perseverance of the Saints), and there is no Biblical evidence for this, so Mormons reject it as do many other Christians. Only a certain segment of Protestants believe this. I'm curious as to your reason for believing it. Just because a person starts on the path toward God does not mean that they can't choose to leave that path and reject God. I have seen this happen countless times.
Christians are not Calvinists. We know that Calvinists are going to Hell. But you are overlooking OSAS that is not Calvinistic, but OSAS Arminian. In other words, instead of being once saved always saved irresistibly a person can be once saved always saved by giving their lives to the God who keeps
, for we don't even have in our own strength once saved to keep ourselves. saved. So John 10.28 says, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man
pluck them out of my hand." As an aside Calvinists are confused because they teach "perseverance" which is works; they are suppose to believe in irresistible works. What you are teaching is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, that great harlot of religious Rome that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications. Roman Catholics are Remonstrants. But the Bible teaches salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast.
So there are not different heavens to go to based on your works. What you have seen countless times is a person who was never saved to begin with because if it was real it would have remained. Christians are not Remonstrants like you and the RCC, but nor are we Calvinists. We are the ones who were killed by the Roman Catholic Church and by that Protestant Pope of Geneva John Calvin. We are a "little flock" (Luke 12.32). The RCC is a great harlot, Mormons are a little harlot. Technically though Mormons are not even in Christendom. Many in Christendom are not saved, but Mormons are not even in that sphere as they are so aberrant.
Mormons have a very different concept of hell as compared to traditional Christianity, and I believe that virtually all people who have every lived on the earth will eventually go to heaven. The Bible makes it very clear that we should live our lives according to the commandments God has given us. As we do so, we will become more like Christ and we will be blessed and rewarded as we follow him. That does not mean that we can save ourselves through our works.
I don't believe most Mormons believe in Universalism for they do believe that Hell is a place of eternal separation from God even though in Mormonism very few go there. This speaks to the low standards in Mormonism if almost everyone is saved. But you believe in Universalism which has major problems such as you will be sharing a bunk bed with Hitler, Stalin, Mao, rapists and other sadistic evil people who never repent. Firstly, the Bible teaches there is no rest day or night forever in Hell where the worm never dies. Secondly, free will is not truly free if you don't have the free choice to reject God
. Once resurrected a person will not change their mind. That's why I have never met anyone past the age of 40 (though there may be a few) who ever gave their life to Christ because they had more than enough time. Before you can receive this new life and work in that new life, you need to be born-again. The only way for you to be born-again is if you accept who Jesus truly is and receive what He did for you. You don't actually receive what He did for you turn Him into a false Christ and a lesser being which, of course, is what you have done.
But in Christianity, works don't save or give you a standing in the pillars of the New City.
I don't understand this statement. Maybe you can clarify.
After the millennial kingdom, rewards are done away with. Everyone will be where they belong in the New City so it would be unjust to have multiple different heavens as in Mormonism. It reeks survival of the fittest. There is only one heaven and Rev. 21 heaven and earth come together in the New City on the New Earth. Period. There is one thing I haven't told you about, about who lives outside the New City on the New Earth who go through the 12 gates to receive renewal from the Tree of Life, but I will save that for another time.
Works in Christianity only are rewarded when Jesus returns to reign over the nations for 1000 years.
I agree that judgment day will occur after the second coming of Christ during or after his Millennial reign. But I have a question for you. If you believe that you are going to heaven, and you believe that you will be rewarded for your works, as you state here, do you believe that different people will receive different levels of rewards? If so, doesn't that mean that there will be different levels of heaven? Earlier you criticized Mormons for believing this, but it sounds like you must believe the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Judgment Seat is for Christians when He returns. The Great White Throne is after the millennial kingdom and judges the unsaved. Paul distinguishes spiritual and carnal Christians. Spiritual Christians receive the reward of returning (Jude 14,15) with Christ to reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26,27) for 1000 years (20.4-6). Think of that reward being presidents, prime ministers, ministers, ombudsmen, even head of businesses because knowledge is not as important as conscience. A better conscience in charge makes things run better. The millennial kingdom is not heaven. This is why the millennial kingdom is called the "time of recompense".
I can't get Mormonism to agree with Christianity.
If by Christianity you mean traditional Christianity of the Catholic, Orthodox, or one of the many Protestant varieties, then I would absolutely agree with you! Mormonism is not the same as traditional, creedal Christianity. We make the claim that we are more similar to the original Christianity as taught by Jesus and his apostles than any other church, and there is much evidence to support this view. We are a restoration of the ancient church in these latter days, and since we definitely believe in Jesus Christ, we definitely consider ourselves to be Christians.
Think of an orthodox Christianity that sticks with the Bible, after all the Bible says don't say "I of Cephas" (denominationalism), "I of Apollos", don't even say "I of Jesus" (congregationalism). In the Bible the church is a locality of believers in a region of church localities so you see the church of Jerusalem in the churches of Judea, the church of Antioch in the churches Syria, or the church of Dallas in the churches of Texas. If someone asks what church you belong to, speaking to Christians, say you belong to the church <your town> in the churches of <your state or province>. Even where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name. This treats the church as a locality responsible unto itself.
As aberrant as the Roman Catholics and Protestants are in all their varieties they are still closer to traditional orthodox Christianity than Mormon will ever be because they are Monotheistic. Mormons are the most polytheistic and henotheistic religion on the planet. I know you want to think you are Christian, but you are so far away. You are very much like atheists, but call yourselves supernatural atheists
. Mormons are not restoring anything, you're just a cult headed up by a con artist Joseph Smith. The Church has always been fine the past 20 centuries. It did not disappear. And think how evil that would be that people could not get saved for 18 centuries. You definitely do not believe in Jesus Christ because Jesus created all things and only the uncreated Creator can atone for sins; anything else is insufficient and deficient. Humble yourself to the One True God who's power and authority in being alone from everlasting with nothing beside Him, no gods, nothing. By the way Rev. 17.16 says a dirty nuclear bomb will blow up the Vatican the smallest city in the world.
Therefore, Mormons must be wrong about thinking that the Church disappeared for 18 centuries. That would be crazy since people couldn't get saved for 18 centuries.
The church did not disappear for 18 centuries. The priesthood authority to perform saving ordinances was lost, and some doctrines were corrupted, but there are many, many people who lived during that time who will receive salvation. I'm curious what your belief is regarding what a person must do to be saved. You seem to think that the Church is necessary for salvation, and I agree with you, but many evangelical Protestants believe that confessing Christ is all that is required. If it's important to have a church, how do you know which church it should be?
There were no doctrines that were corrupted. That's what a cult would say. I can help you with each one you hold precious. The Bible remains intact. You are actually saying the Church disappeared because the body of Christ is a royal priesthood and for 18 centuries you claim it was without priesthood. If you are not a royal priesthood, you're not saved. All believers are a royal priesthood
. You're trying to Judaize Christianity by having an intermediary other than Jesus. Saving ordinances do not exist, for anyone can come to Christ without your alleged ordinances. Baptism does not save; rather, baptism is symbolic of burial and resurrection with Christ and coming out of the world up out of the water with Jesus. It is performed with or without water and it is experiential and for service having a sense you no longer belong to this world like a sojourner. All you need to be saved is to accept Jesus so nobody is without excuse. The church is for fellowship and to draw people to Christ. The solution for you is to relinquish the idea you need big glorious buildings with the Pentagram on them calling down the power of Satan, without any crosses, and just accept walking to the mall, or at the gym, or perhaps a small gather with friends on your street that there the church. In the OT the groups broken up into counted as 50 individuals. This does not preclude 3000 or 5000 together at one time, but it is less optimal.
You say that it would be crazy if people couldn't be saved for 18 centuries, and I would agree with you. But I have a question. What do you think about all of the people who lived for several thousand years before Jesus was born? What about all of the people who have lived who have never even heard of Jesus? Do they have any chance of being saved? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church I know of that claims that every single person will have a full and equal opportunity for salvation, regardless of when or where they lived. Most Christians believe that all of those people are going to hell, but I don't see a just and merciful God doing that. He wants us all to return to live with him forever.
Firstly, those who were looking to their Messiah as their suffering servant whose hands would be pierced in Is. 53 are no doubt saved. But someone on a remote island who never heard of Jesus, yet rejected the idols worshiped as gods, and believed in the God of the mountains and stars surely if he was presented Christ would accept Him whole heartedly. As you see the Father you see the Son, and as you see the Son you see the Father for with the Holy Spirit they are the Trinity. Father is I AM and Alpha and Omega, and Jesus said the same about Himself
. Test yourself. Ask yourself how would the word of God need to be worded to convince you in the Triune God? I find that the Bible expresses it so many ways in so many places it would be overly redundant to do more than what the Bible has already done to make the point. Hell is eternally rejecting the Triune God, because those who reject the Triune God can't be in heaven since there is no sin corrupting people with a lie and not humbling yourself to God with the truth. You want to think Christians believe people who receive common grace and have not heard the special grace of the gospel are going to Hell, but that's not what we believe. A merciful God is no a God who is going to send you to different heavens based on your works, nor is God merciful in sending you to Hell after you were saved. As Dave Hunt said, that would be a weird kind of salvation if you get saved, lose it, get it back and lose it again. God will just throw the whole of Mormons in Hell, and actually, you lock yourself in Hell from the inside because you admit you will never accept the Triune God. So be it.
But the Bible says Hell can't come against the Church even though Mormons think it had.
Let me ask you a question, Troy. As a Protestant, do you believe that the Catholic Church is the true church that Jesus established? If your answer is no, then that means that the original church must have become corrupted or changed, because the Catholic Church was the only church for many centuries. If your answer is yes, then why do you subscribe to Protestant beliefs that are different from the Catholic Church? My point is that both Mormons and Protestants believe that the original church fell into apostasy. Protestants believe that they can get back to the original truth by correctly interpreting the Bible, but which of the hundreds of Protestant interpretations is correct? Mormons believe that the only way to return to the authority and purity of the original church was for God to restore it through a prophet and through continuing revelation. I would invite you to seriously consider this possibility.
You're misreading the Bible. In Rev. 2 & 3 we see a review of the problems the Church will go through for the past 20 centuries. The first church which was in the first century is Ephesus. They lost their "first love". The 2nd century church was called Smyrna. God told them to hold on for 10 days more as they were heavily martyred. The 3rd century church was called Pergamum. Their mistake was marrying church and state under Constantine. These 3 churches passed, but the next 4 after starting remained even to today. The 4th church period was Thyatira with Jezebel. She represents the beginning days of the Roman Catholic Church. She was a mustard seed but then turned into a great big tree with branches birds landed on like demons. The next church period was called Sardis representing revivals, but like a glass a water refilled with less and less water each time. It became in the 15th century reemphasizing justification by faith
. Of course Calvinist latch onto that and call themselves Reformed which is a misnomer since the church doesn't need reforming. It had all the tools it always had. Luther was not saved because he was a Calvinist like Augustine before him. The 6th church period was Philadelphia, brotherly love. They were in the 1830s called the Brethren Movement. This was a name given to them, but in actuality they just wanted to be called Christians
; that alone distinguished them as Philadelphia. And the last church period we are in now at the tail end of today is Laodicea. They are considered neither hot nor cold, just lukewarm. For a deeper study of the 7 church periods from a Christian who had the highest IQ in Christendom,
Protestants do not believe the Church fell into apostasy, for the church has always been there as a church locality in a region of churches. With so much corruption go on around the world and in Christendom, the little flock remained true. Apostles are directly commissioned by God to appoint Elders of each church locality, and in turn those Elders approve the Elders of the many meeting places in a locality. The church is a locality of believers responsible unto itself and does not need a big show and pomp like Mormons. Praise the Lord!
None of the 150 sects of the cult of Mormonism are true, but those who are truly born-again Christians have no denomination. Your approach is all wrong. You are making the same mistake Joseph Smith made when he asked what is the correct church? Satan gave him the wrong answer. When you begin to see the church as a locality of believers and they as a unit are responsible to themselves, you won't need to be part of the Mormon cult. You will try to make your church locality run better the race (first get saved though). You'll stop looking to the outer and walk in the inner sanctuary of your spirit receiving intuitive revelation in your spirit by the Holy Spirit. There are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers/Shepherds every century as workers for the Church. But the prophet you follow is a false prophet. The New Jerusalem was never built in west Missouri within a generation and your Jesus never returned in 1891 as Joseph Smith promised. Besides Missouri is only about 264 x 264 miles. The New Jerusalem in Rev. 21 is 1379 x 1379 miles. Smith didn't understand this. For him it was always about west vs. east. The center from where Jesus will reign is the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem for 1000 years, not America. The sooner you accept this the sooner you can begin to make progress in your life towards who Jesus really is.