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    by Published on 01-27-2016 03:26 PM     Number of Views: 213 
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    FairMormon.Org

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael LeCheminant
    These are my opinions and do not necessarily represent FairMormon or the LDS church.

    In monotheism of Christianity God was alone from everlasting and nothing beside God (no nature/matter/intelligences/material/etc), but not in Mormonism.
    This statement is not Biblical. Do you have a scriptural reference for why you believe this? When you say that God was alone, do you mean the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, or all three of them? Genesis chapter 1 says "let us make man in our image." The ancient Jews believed (as Mormons do) that in the beginning there was a council of gods.
    The Jews did not believe in a council of gods. They believed there were no such thing as gods, they were just idols made up by men. Elohim is the Trinity; if not then simply speaking of majesty.

    The law of the conservation of mass states that mass cannot be created or destroyed. This fits with the Mormon belief that God organized existing matter to create the universe. Some essence of our being has always existed.
    The law of conservation of mass allows for God who is infinitely great to bring things into being from Himself so nature did not always need to exist as you surmised. No essence of your being ever existed before God created you. By placing yourself alongside God feeds pride and debases God to a lesser being so you don't receive salvation from God who is optimally great.

    Mormons believe that all people are spirit children of God and that we lived with him before we were born. I find this to be a wonderful teaching that makes sense to me as well as a number of non-Mormons I have talked to, and it is hinted at several times in the Bible, yet no other church believes it. You are correct that Mormon belief is different from traditional Christianity. That is why we send missionaries throughout the world to share our message with everyone we can.
    It's never hinted at in the Bible we lived with God before being born. It's simply the romance of the gods such as Zeus and the gods of eastern religions. It's a way to exalt self. Whereas Christianity is monotheistic, that is to say, God was alone from everlasting before time and space in His 3 Persons. As the Bible says there is none beside Him, and no gods after Him. What you are doing to yourself is rejecting the atonement of Christ because you have turned Jesus into a lesser being who can never save. Only the uncreated Creator has that power to redeem. Since you are sending missionaries out, you are sending men to their doom and others. And isn't that Satan's ultimate objective? The Church did not disappear for 18 centuries.

    And there was nothing beside God before time and space.
    I believe that God is a physical being who interacts with others, and therefore he must exist in time and space. It makes no sense to me that it could be otherwise.
    Since the Bible says God the Father is spirit and that you can't see Him then He is not a physical being. He can and does exist outside of time and space in the Trinity. This is not so hard to understand as you think. Think of yourself as a stick figure on a piece of paper. He can see 2 dimensions. A cube is 3 dimensions. So when the cube is presented, the stick figure can only see one side or a square. He doesn't see the full cube (he can't) because the cube is in 3 dimensions. So it is with the 3 Persons of the Trinity. There is the other problem posed of your faith that if God the Father was once a man who became a God and the God that created that man was once a man, and this goes on ad infinitum in the past, you have the same problem atheists have because if there was this infinite regress of cause and effects, you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. So nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator, the Trinity, is whom we call God. Mormons are really supernatural atheists.

    And Jesus created all things, being God (John 1.1) in the Trinity.
    I agree that Jesus is God and created the world under the direction of his Father.
    Jesus didn't just create the world, He created all things. He didn't even create only on the instruction of the Father for John 1.3 says "All things were made by him." Always remember, you redefine what God is so you don't agree that Jesus is God. God is not multiple beings. That's if anything polytheism. God is one Being. That's traditional monotheism even in other faiths. Evil the Devil knows God is One Being. There are not some things Jesus did not create. He created all things so there cannot be these things you call material/matter/intelligences that always existed alongside God.

    So how can the Jesus of Mormonism be the Jesus of Christianity?
    The Jesus of Mormonism is God incarnate who was born to the virgin Mary, worked many mighty miracles such as healing the sick and raising the dead, taught many important things such as those found in the Sermon on the Mount, and then suffered for all of our sins, was crucified on the cross, buried in a tomb, and was the first to be resurrected. He is our Savior and Redeemer and the Messiah. Is this this the same Jesus that you believe in?
    The reason why your Jesus is not the same Jesus because you redefine all these terms, but don't tell people until later. Jesus God incarnate is not a separate being from the Father or the Spirit. They are One Being in 3 Persons, co-equal like Phil. 2 says, co-inherent, one substances, each Person distinct, but not separate. Whereas your incarnation is relegated to being something alongside God in the eternity of the past. Surely you can see God alone from everlasting in His 3 Persons is all-knowing, all-powerful and everywhere present when He cannot be if He is limited by material/matter/intelligences that always existed also and if He was not alone before time and space. See the problem? It's not solvable because Mormonism is just a cult that came 18 centuries later. And so you are receiving an atonement that lacks the all-inclusiveness and effectiveness in Christ.

    Lastly, in Christianity when a person is born-again they can never go to Hell, but in Mormonism after being saved you can still go to Hell as an apostate Mormon and your works determine which heaven you go to.
    Most Christians do not believe in the Calvinist teaching of "once saved, always saved" (perseverance of the Saints), and there is no Biblical evidence for this, so Mormons reject it as do many other Christians. Only a certain segment of Protestants believe this. I'm curious as to your reason for believing it. Just because a person starts on the path toward God does not mean that they can't choose to leave that path and reject God. I have seen this happen countless times.
    Christians are not Calvinists. We know that Calvinists are going to Hell. But you are overlooking OSAS that is not Calvinistic, but OSAS Arminian. In other words, instead of being once saved always saved irresistibly a person can be once saved always saved by giving their lives to the God who keeps, for we don't even have in our own strength once saved to keep ourselves. saved. So John 10.28 says, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." As an aside Calvinists are confused because they teach "perseverance" which is works; they are suppose to believe in irresistible works. What you are teaching is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, that great harlot of religious Rome that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications. Roman Catholics are Remonstrants. But the Bible teaches salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast. So there are not different heavens to go to based on your works. What you have seen countless times is a person who was never saved to begin with because if it was real it would have remained. Christians are not Remonstrants like you and the RCC, but nor are we Calvinists. We are the ones who were killed by the Roman Catholic Church and by that Protestant Pope of Geneva John Calvin. We are a "little flock" (Luke 12.32). The RCC is a great harlot, Mormons are a little harlot. Technically though Mormons are not even in Christendom. Many in Christendom are not saved, but Mormons are not even in that sphere as they are so aberrant.

    Mormons have a very different concept of hell as compared to traditional Christianity, and I believe that virtually all people who have every lived on the earth will eventually go to heaven. The Bible makes it very clear that we should live our lives according to the commandments God has given us. As we do so, we will become more like Christ and we will be blessed and rewarded as we follow him. That does not mean that we can save ourselves through our works.
    I don't believe most Mormons believe in Universalism for they do believe that Hell is a place of eternal separation from God even though in Mormonism very few go there. This speaks to the low standards in Mormonism if almost everyone is saved. But you believe in Universalism which has major problems such as you will be sharing a bunk bed with Hitler, Stalin, Mao, rapists and other sadistic evil people who never repent. Firstly, the Bible teaches there is no rest day or night forever in Hell where the worm never dies. Secondly, free will is not truly free if you don't have the free choice to reject God. Once resurrected a person will not change their mind. That's why I have never met anyone past the age of 40 (though there may be a few) who ever gave their life to Christ because they had more than enough time. Before you can receive this new life and work in that new life, you need to be born-again. The only way for you to be born-again is if you accept who Jesus truly is and receive what He did for you. You don't actually receive what He did for you turn Him into a false Christ and a lesser being which, of course, is what you have done.

    But in Christianity, works don't save or give you a standing in the pillars of the New City.
    I don't understand this statement. Maybe you can clarify.
    After the millennial kingdom, rewards are done away with. Everyone will be where they belong in the New City so it would be unjust to have multiple different heavens as in Mormonism. It reeks survival of the fittest. There is only one heaven and Rev. 21 heaven and earth come together in the New City on the New Earth. Period. There is one thing I haven't told you about, about who lives outside the New City on the New Earth who go through the 12 gates to receive renewal from the Tree of Life, but I will save that for another time.

    Works in Christianity only are rewarded when Jesus returns to reign over the nations for 1000 years.
    I agree that judgment day will occur after the second coming of Christ during or after his Millennial reign. But I have a question for you. If you believe that you are going to heaven, and you believe that you will be rewarded for your works, as you state here, do you believe that different people will receive different levels of rewards? If so, doesn't that mean that there will be different levels of heaven? Earlier you criticized Mormons for believing this, but it sounds like you must believe the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Judgment Seat is for Christians when He returns. The Great White Throne is after the millennial kingdom and judges the unsaved. Paul distinguishes spiritual and carnal Christians. Spiritual Christians receive the reward of returning (Jude 14,15) with Christ to reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26,27) for 1000 years (20.4-6). Think of that reward being presidents, prime ministers, ministers, ombudsmen, even head of businesses because knowledge is not as important as conscience. A better conscience in charge makes things run better. The millennial kingdom is not heaven. This is why the millennial kingdom is called the "time of recompense".

    I can't get Mormonism to agree with Christianity.
    If by Christianity you mean traditional Christianity of the Catholic, Orthodox, or one of the many Protestant varieties, then I would absolutely agree with you! Mormonism is not the same as traditional, creedal Christianity. We make the claim that we are more similar to the original Christianity as taught by Jesus and his apostles than any other church, and there is much evidence to support this view. We are a restoration of the ancient church in these latter days, and since we definitely believe in Jesus Christ, we definitely consider ourselves to be Christians.
    Think of an orthodox Christianity that sticks with the Bible, after all the Bible says don't say "I of Cephas" (denominationalism), "I of Apollos", don't even say "I of Jesus" (congregationalism). In the Bible the church is a locality of believers in a region of church localities so you see the church of Jerusalem in the churches of Judea, the church of Antioch in the churches Syria, or the church of Dallas in the churches of Texas. If someone asks what church you belong to, speaking to Christians, say you belong to the church <your town> in the churches of <your state or province>. Even where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name. This treats the church as a locality responsible unto itself.

    As aberrant as the Roman Catholics and Protestants are in all their varieties they are still closer to traditional orthodox Christianity than Mormon will ever be because they are Monotheistic. Mormons are the most polytheistic and henotheistic religion on the planet. I know you want to think you are Christian, but you are so far away. You are very much like atheists, but call yourselves supernatural atheists. Mormons are not restoring anything, you're just a cult headed up by a con artist Joseph Smith. The Church has always been fine the past 20 centuries. It did not disappear. And think how evil that would be that people could not get saved for 18 centuries. You definitely do not believe in Jesus Christ because Jesus created all things and only the uncreated Creator can atone for sins; anything else is insufficient and deficient. Humble yourself to the One True God who's power and authority in being alone from everlasting with nothing beside Him, no gods, nothing. By the way Rev. 17.16 says a dirty nuclear bomb will blow up the Vatican the smallest city in the world.

    Therefore, Mormons must be wrong about thinking that the Church disappeared for 18 centuries. That would be crazy since people couldn't get saved for 18 centuries.
    The church did not disappear for 18 centuries. The priesthood authority to perform saving ordinances was lost, and some doctrines were corrupted, but there are many, many people who lived during that time who will receive salvation. I'm curious what your belief is regarding what a person must do to be saved. You seem to think that the Church is necessary for salvation, and I agree with you, but many evangelical Protestants believe that confessing Christ is all that is required. If it's important to have a church, how do you know which church it should be?
    There were no doctrines that were corrupted. That's what a cult would say. I can help you with each one you hold precious. The Bible remains intact. You are actually saying the Church disappeared because the body of Christ is a royal priesthood and for 18 centuries you claim it was without priesthood. If you are not a royal priesthood, you're not saved. All believers are a royal priesthood. You're trying to Judaize Christianity by having an intermediary other than Jesus. Saving ordinances do not exist, for anyone can come to Christ without your alleged ordinances. Baptism does not save; rather, baptism is symbolic of burial and resurrection with Christ and coming out of the world up out of the water with Jesus. It is performed with or without water and it is experiential and for service having a sense you no longer belong to this world like a sojourner. All you need to be saved is to accept Jesus so nobody is without excuse. The church is for fellowship and to draw people to Christ. The solution for you is to relinquish the idea you need big glorious buildings with the Pentagram on them calling down the power of Satan, without any crosses, and just accept walking to the mall, or at the gym, or perhaps a small gather with friends on your street that there the church. In the OT the groups broken up into counted as 50 individuals. This does not preclude 3000 or 5000 together at one time, but it is less optimal.

    You say that it would be crazy if people couldn't be saved for 18 centuries, and I would agree with you. But I have a question. What do you think about all of the people who lived for several thousand years before Jesus was born? What about all of the people who have lived who have never even heard of Jesus? Do they have any chance of being saved? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church I know of that claims that every single person will have a full and equal opportunity for salvation, regardless of when or where they lived. Most Christians believe that all of those people are going to hell, but I don't see a just and merciful God doing that. He wants us all to return to live with him forever.
    Firstly, those who were looking to their Messiah as their suffering servant whose hands would be pierced in Is. 53 are no doubt saved. But someone on a remote island who never heard of Jesus, yet rejected the idols worshiped as gods, and believed in the God of the mountains and stars surely if he was presented Christ would accept Him whole heartedly. As you see the Father you see the Son, and as you see the Son you see the Father for with the Holy Spirit they are the Trinity. Father is I AM and Alpha and Omega, and Jesus said the same about Himself. Test yourself. Ask yourself how would the word of God need to be worded to convince you in the Triune God? I find that the Bible expresses it so many ways in so many places it would be overly redundant to do more than what the Bible has already done to make the point. Hell is eternally rejecting the Triune God, because those who reject the Triune God can't be in heaven since there is no sin corrupting people with a lie and not humbling yourself to God with the truth. You want to think Christians believe people who receive common grace and have not heard the special grace of the gospel are going to Hell, but that's not what we believe. A merciful God is no a God who is going to send you to different heavens based on your works, nor is God merciful in sending you to Hell after you were saved. As Dave Hunt said, that would be a weird kind of salvation if you get saved, lose it, get it back and lose it again. God will just throw the whole of Mormons in Hell, and actually, you lock yourself in Hell from the inside because you admit you will never accept the Triune God. So be it.

    But the Bible says Hell can't come against the Church even though Mormons think it had.
    Let me ask you a question, Troy. As a Protestant, do you believe that the Catholic Church is the true church that Jesus established? If your answer is no, then that means that the original church must have become corrupted or changed, because the Catholic Church was the only church for many centuries. If your answer is yes, then why do you subscribe to Protestant beliefs that are different from the Catholic Church? My point is that both Mormons and Protestants believe that the original church fell into apostasy. Protestants believe that they can get back to the original truth by correctly interpreting the Bible, but which of the hundreds of Protestant interpretations is correct? Mormons believe that the only way to return to the authority and purity of the original church was for God to restore it through a prophet and through continuing revelation. I would invite you to seriously consider this possibility.

    Mike L.
    You're misreading the Bible. In Rev. 2 & 3 we see a review of the problems the Church will go through for the past 20 centuries. The first church which was in the first century is Ephesus. They lost their "first love". The 2nd century church was called Smyrna. God told them to hold on for 10 days more as they were heavily martyred. The 3rd century church was called Pergamum. Their mistake was marrying church and state under Constantine. These 3 churches passed, but the next 4 after starting remained even to today. The 4th church period was Thyatira with Jezebel. She represents the beginning days of the Roman Catholic Church. She was a mustard seed but then turned into a great big tree with branches birds landed on like demons. The next church period was called Sardis representing revivals, but like a glass a water refilled with less and less water each time. It became in the 15th century reemphasizing justification by faith. Of course Calvinist latch onto that and call themselves Reformed which is a misnomer since the church doesn't need reforming. It had all the tools it always had. Luther was not saved because he was a Calvinist like Augustine before him. The 6th church period was Philadelphia, brotherly love. They were in the 1830s called the Brethren Movement. This was a name given to them, but in actuality they just wanted to be called Christians; that alone distinguished them as Philadelphia. And the last church period we are in now at the tail end of today is Laodicea. They are considered neither hot nor cold, just lukewarm. For a deeper study of the 7 church periods from a Christian who had the highest IQ in Christendom,


    Protestants do not believe the Church fell into apostasy, for the church has always been there as a church locality in a region of churches. With so much corruption go on around the world and in Christendom, the little flock remained true. Apostles are directly commissioned by God to appoint Elders of each church locality, and in turn those Elders approve the Elders of the many meeting places in a locality. The church is a locality of believers responsible unto itself and does not need a big show and pomp like Mormons. Praise the Lord!

    None of the 150 sects of the cult of Mormonism are true, but those who are truly born-again Christians have no denomination. Your approach is all wrong. You are making the same mistake Joseph Smith made when he asked what is the correct church? Satan gave him the wrong answer. When you begin to see the church as a locality of believers and they as a unit are responsible to themselves, you won't need to be part of the Mormon cult. You will try to make your church locality run better the race (first get saved though). You'll stop looking to the outer and walk in the inner sanctuary of your spirit receiving intuitive revelation in your spirit by the Holy Spirit. There are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers/Shepherds every century as workers for the Church. But the prophet you follow is a false prophet. The New Jerusalem was never built in west Missouri within a generation and your Jesus never returned in 1891 as Joseph Smith promised. Besides Missouri is only about 264 x 264 miles. The New Jerusalem in Rev. 21 is 1379 x 1379 miles. Smith didn't understand this. For him it was always about west vs. east. The center from where Jesus will reign is the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem for 1000 years, not America. The sooner you accept this the sooner you can begin to make progress in your life towards who Jesus really is.
    by Published on 12-21-2015 02:23 AM     Number of Views: 213 
    1. Categories:
    2. Regeneration,
    3. LDS/Mormons,
    4. Trinity

    I am a Christian. I was born-again as in John 3.7,16 Jan. 2001 and given eternal life right at that moment (John 3.15, 17.3). I can never lose salvation (John 10.28), and I go to the highest heaven of which there is only one heaven anyhow which is the New City in the New Earth (Rev. 21) where heaven and earth come together.

    The only new earth that fits this description is Mars for various many reasons as the old earth is left without the sea, but the new earth will also be without the sea as disclosed in Scripture (Rev. 21.1). And John viewed the New City from a great high mountain, mount Olympus, the largest mountain in the solar system. Hugh Ross, a scientist, has come up with over 800 variables for life to exist on another planet, but there are only 10^24 planets in the universe, so it is impossible for life to exist on another planet. Mars would have to be greatly terraformed for humans to live on it. Also, if 1% of the population goes to the highest heaven in Mormonism, there, again, are not enough planets in the universe. This is an easy enough mathematical calculation, and it holds true whether you start from Adam 4004 BC or from 1830 in Joseph Smith's time.

    Paul said "But I wish everyone were single, just as I am. Yet each person has a special gift from God, of one kind or another." (1 Cor. 7.7) "For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven" (Matt. 22.30). I don't see any couples in heaven when people die. I don't see, thus, billions of spirit babies.

    I find these verses disagree with Mormonism greatly. The word of God is pure and unchangeable. Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (Matt. 24.35, Mark 13.31, Luke 21.33). That being the case, the 66 books of the Bible have not been corrupted and remain perfectly preserved. So anything that contradicts it would not be true.

    I believe in the Trinity. One way to understand this without using Scripture is to provide an analogy since Mormons will often say the Bible is true but only to the extent that Joseph Smith says it is true; then no verse can be relied upon to help Mormons according to Mormons since they will just change it on the fly if they are corned. There is no cornerstone of truth.

    So imagine if you will a piece of paper. And on this piece of paper is a stick figure with legs, feet, circle for head, and arms and hands. Let's give this figure consciousness. In viewing his surroundings he will just see lines since his world is just width and length. He will see different colors in those lines; or he might see a 2 dimensional square or 2 dimensional shapes. They keep changing colors as an actual 3 dimensional cube with different colors on each side keeps rotating. God is showing you one side, then another side, and yet another side when you read about the Father, the Son and the Spirit (analogous to a 3 dimensional triangle, but don't get caught up in the analogy), yet all 3 are God so you can say 1/3+1/3+1/3=1. God doesn't need more sides than 3 so He only shows us 3 sides. We can't speculate beyond what He has revealed.

    A God who is infinitely greater than us stands to reason we can't see Him as He fully is in additional planes (God the Father is spirit, none can see spirit), but He can show us the sides of Him (Jesus entered His creation and Holy Spirit came to indwell the regenerated spirit of a saved person). And that's what He does with His Triune Being. Before the foundations of the world God's 3 Persons of One Being, One Substance, existed before time and space. There was nothing but God. Out of His glory He created us. He already had glory and perfection in His 3 Persons. This God is so much different than the Mormon god who once was a man. As God is, man may become; as man is, God once was according to Mormons. The law of eternal progression is a false law. This is bringing God down to our level of understanding and mistaken perception at that which leaves something to be desired.

    So, in conclusion, I don't see materials or intelligences beside God out of which He created, nor does God have a creator, for God is the uncreated Creator before time and space. He creates out of Himself. Man did not always exist in some pre-existing form alongside God. And that's the difference. Which God trumps the other? I believe God of the Bible wins out by proving His existence by the Trinity which is a superior concept or idea of God than simply God being an exalted man. Besides, salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast. Hindus believe the ultimate Creator is Brahma. Muslims believe in the uncreated Creator also except that he is not the God of the Bible. Even the Devil knows God is the uncreated Creator but that can't save him, nor you. There must be a relationship founded upon the new birth.

    Likewise, the god of Mormonism can't be true either, because God always existed alone from everlasting, and because Jesus died for the sins of the world that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3.16). To receive eternal life is not by works lest anyone should boast (Eph. 2.9). Works flow from the new life, as a new creation of God, but they do not have the power to gain salvation or lose it. Grow in that new life once born-again to walk by the Spirit in our spirit. First you need to be born-again. Mormons have never been born-again by the Spirit of God.
    by Published on 07-16-2015 09:38 PM     Number of Views: 389 
    1. Categories:
    2. Atheist, Agnostic, Agtheist

    Are Atheists Going to Hell?

    The proof for God is very simple and does not need a PhD in quantum physics or MD. God is no respecter of persons. A brilliant scholar or scientist has no advantage over a mongoloid child. Since everyone has access to this proof readily available in their own thoughts and conscience what then is that proof for God? (thus rendering atheism and agnosticism nonsense)

    Start from what we know. We know that nature always has a cause and effect. We observe trillions of cause and effects in nature, and no hard evidence of something from nothing, which is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. You don't need to know every last thing to know God exists. An overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt will suffice. Besides if your position is that you need to know all things to know if God exists you are essentially saying you have to be God all-knowing to know if God exists which is absurd since obviously you are not God, and frankly, you're not that bright. You can't even remember fully what happened to you yesterday. And I am sure you sinned multiple times yesterday as well, but God has no sin (unhealthy habits). The audacity and arrogance of some people claim they have no errors or sin in their thoughts and conduct.

    The only other option is the universe always existed, but this fails on its head, because if there was this alleged infinite regress of cause and effects of nature, you would have had, by that definition, an eternity to come into being before now so you should have already happened. And you would never have existed because a past eternity would continue for eternity in the past never to reach this point since it goes on forever. That's the nature of the silliness of a past eternity. It is, merely, a man made fantasy, construct and false.

    And so nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator is whom we call God.

    Now that you know God exists, find out where He reveals Himself. Just as we are personal and accessible so must God be for He cannot be less than His creation. There are only 3 faiths in the world that are accessible, comprising 90% of all faiths: Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. But only one teaches salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast. The other two are works based faiths (thus, false). Man's arrogance thinks he can bridge the gap between himself and God by his own self-power. No amount of self-strength and works will bridge the gap between you and God to satisfy Him. Only God satisfies God. Hence, God the Son personally enters His creation to pay the penalty for our sins, and resurrected the 3rd day, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. The rest go to Hell. Still to this day nobody has been able to find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings seeing Jesus alive from the dead. Group hallucinations are impossible. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. And the swoon theory would not convince anyone Jesus is the risen Lord all tattered and torn, scourged down to the bone, spear in His chest cavity and heart, and holes in his hands and feet, unable to walk.

    Free will is not truly free if you don't have this free choice to eternally separate yourself from God by going to Hell. Note this choice is a choice for forever. It is not as if after a billion years in Hell you will have a change of mind. You will be where you belong forever! One example I can give of this mentality is the reason why Satan is released at the end of the millennial kingdom for a short while is to show that he will never repent.

    Atheists, agnostics and agtheists are bad people!
    by Published on 05-05-2015 10:03 PM     Number of Views: 287 
    1. Categories:
    2. Atheist, Agnostic, Agtheist

    It's amazing that anyone would be an atheist or non-Christian, but then again, God affords us this free choice whom to be with, and the ultimate expression of rejecting God to go to Hell is by being an atheist, agnostic or any other kind of non-Christian. The proof is so simple...

    That which does not exist can't cause anything because it doesn't exist. So nature can't start up from nothing. The evidence further supports this in that we observe trillions of cause and effects of nature, an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, but no hard evidence of something from nothing. Therefore, we can be confident nature needs a cause from something if it didn't always exist. But did it always exist? How could it? If the universe or universes always existed, by that definition, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now, so you should have already happened. And self-contradictory, you would never have come into being because an alleged past eternity of cause and effects of nature would by that definition go on forever never reaching this point. Ergo, atheism and agnosticism are delusional.

    So the uncreated Creator exists. But Who is He? Many claim to believe in God but do they have the right God that will actually have the power to save? The uncreated Creator cannot be less than His creation. Human beings have morals, are personal and accessible to one another. Therefore, God must be too. There are only 3 faiths that are large enough to span the globe to be considered accessible: Christianity, Islam, Hinduism. And God is not an absentee landlord since that is frowned upon so that removes any chance for deism to be true (sorry Anthony Flew you're going to Hell). Islam is clearly false because you can't come along six centuries later and claim Jesus never died on the cross without any evidence to overturn the evidence of the first century in scores of documents. Hinduism would be false because Brahma is said to be amoral, but how can the Creator be less than the created with morals? Additionally Hinduism breaks down because it is, like Islam, salvation by works, but no works can bring you to God lest anyone should boast, because that gap is infinite due to your sin nature and God can have no fellowship with sinful sinners. It is also unjust to become a frog with a frog brain if you become too sinful a human in reincarnation. Your eternal destiny determined by your frog brain choices? You are made in God's image and frogs do not mark that image.

    Therefore, without even knowing anything else about Christianity, we know Jesus is God. In the past 2000 years nobody has been able to find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings. Group hallucinations are impossible. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. Swoon theory fails since that would not convince anyone Jesus is the risen Lord, plus it would make Him a liar. Jesus is either God, a liar, or a lunatic. Since He is not a lunatic or a liar, He must be God.
    by Published on 04-24-2015 06:16 PM     Number of Views: 375 
    1. Categories:
    2. Hell,
    3. Atheist, Agnostic, Agtheist,
    4. Bart Erhman

    The reason why I am a theist is because I can't get atheism to make sense. Atheism is false to me because the universe can't start up from nothing for that which does not exist can't cause anything. And the universe can't always have existed because if it did, by that definition, you would have had an eternity to come into being before now, so you should have already happened. More contradiction: you should never have existed, because an alleged past eternity would continue to go on for eternity by its definition, so it would never reach this point of your existence. The idea of a past eternity is a construct of man's imagination having no basis in reality.

    Since atheism is false and theism is true, which theism is the correct one? The correct theism has one uncreated Creator (more than one is self-contradictory) and this uncreated Creator is personal and accessible because He can't be less than us whom He created. Therefore, there are only 3 choices, because there are only 3 accessible faiths: Christianity, Islam and Hinduism.

    But Islam is false because you can't come along six centuries later in a cave all by yourself without any evidence and claim Jesus didn't die on the cross. Jesus' death on the cross is one of the most attested and proven facts of antiquity with scores of both Christian and non-Christian sources in the 1st and 2nd centuries. Hinduism is false because it would be unfair if due to your sin you become a frog and your destiny is determined by giving you a frog brain to decide how to behave. Furthermore, the God of Hinduism is Brahma who is said to be amoral, but how can God have morals below our own? So you get this one life to decide.

    That leaves Christianity. To this day nobody has been able to find a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings. The 4 most famous atheists in the past century Anthony Flew (later turned deist), John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg and Bart Ehrman agreed on certain facts: (1) the Apostles truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead, (2) group hallucinations are impossible, (3) the first churches were set up on the resurrection of Jesus, and (4) the Apostles did not willingly die for what they knew was a lie. People do not allow themselves to cease to exist based on something they don't believe.

    Therefore, the only solution is Jesus is God, salvation is in Him alone, and those who reject what He did on the cross are going to Hell.
    by Published on 01-05-2015 09:11 PM     Number of Views: 744 
    1. Categories:
    2. Atheist, Agnostic, Agtheist

    Dan Barker (dbarker@ffrf.org),

    For me it is simple. We observe trillions of cause and effects in nature, and no hard evidence of something from nothing. So this overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt tells us nature can't start up from nothing. Nor can it always have existed, because if there was an infinite regress of cause and effects, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. So nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator is whom we call God. Thus, atheism is false.

    Knowing God exists, ask which one is true since only one can be true for God does not contradict Himself, and there can only be one uncreated Creator otherwise you have to ask where these others came from. God is accessible and personal because He can't be less than us with these qualities we are endowed with. The greater can never be less than the lesser. Since God is personal and accessible, we need only consider the accessible faiths that make up the vast majority of faiths: Christianity, Islam, Hinduism.

    Islam is false because you can't come along six centuries later with no evidence to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross. That's an assumed religion. Hinduism fails because its god Brahma is said to be amoral, but again, how can the Creator have a morality below that of His creation? Moreover, reincarnation doesn't effectively address our fallen nature as you get endless chances to come back as a frog then become a human being again if you were a good frog. How can you place the burden of man's destiny on the brain of a frog? Very neatly we see that salvation is not by works lest any man should boast. No amount of self-strength, self-reflection or frog work can bridge the gap between you and God. Therefore, we know God intervenes and even enters His creation as Jesus did. Truly unique among the world's faiths. Without knowing anything else then we know God of the Bible is the correct one.

    Very simply, there are no known naturalistic explanations to account for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles in various group settings. The Minimal Facts Approach (coined by Gary R. Habermas - the leading scholar on the planet today for the resurrection) is where most scholars agree that the Apostles truly believed Jesus rose from the dead and consider 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 Paul's true testimony and authorship. He said he spent 15 days with Peter, and time with John and James (brother of Jesus) as well. They agreed on their eyewitness testimony. People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. Group hallucinations are impossible. The swoon theory fails because Jesus all tattered and torn would not convince anyone He is God. And even second generation Apostles like Polycarp and Clement of Rome, and others, said they personally knew Peter, John, Paul, and other Apostles. This multiple corroboration is the best evidence you could ask for. In your own mind try to come up with a better proof. God's proof evidentially will always outshine what you can concoct.

    Dan, no matter how much you thought you were a Christian you never were one, because the Bible defines a Christian as once-saved-always-saved (John 10.28). So according to the Bible you are going to Hell. I think even you would concede you are going to Hell if Jesus and the Apostles did not lie. Since Jesus was not a liar or a lunatic, He must be God!

    Dan Barker, you lose not just debate, but life itself. Instead of receiving eternal life, you will receive eternal damnation and go to the Lake of Fire. That's the type of person you want to be with your free will. So be it! However, I would not wish up my worse enemy where you prefer to go to be eternally separated from your Creator. You're a bad guy! No doubt about it as you want no relationship with God's only begotten Son Christ Jesus, nor His forgiveness by dying on the cross for the sins of the world that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Who needs God right? when you make yourself the center of all things with your talents and strengths. But really how does your life match up to an infinitely great God? Not so good in that light.

    [Jhn 3:15-21 KJV] 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
    by Published on 10-19-2014 01:29 PM     Number of Views: 447 
    1. Categories:
    2. Atheist, Agnostic, Agtheist

    Atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell mused, "If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause." But the question of what or who caused God is misguided.

    First, science supports the notion that the universe had a beginning and that something independent of the universe brought it into being. The well-accepted scientific belief in the universe's origination and expansion and the second law of thermodynamics (energy tends to spread out) support the universe's absolute beginning from nothing (from whence there was nothing but God). This sounds remarkably like Genesis 1.1! The chances of a thing's popping into being from literally nothing (non-existence, all by itself) are exactly zero. Being cannot come from nonbeing; there's no potential for this. Even skeptic David Hume called this "absurd" - a scientific (real) impossibility.

    Second, believers reject the claim "Everything that exists has a cause" and affirm "Whatever begins to exist has a cause." To say "Everything needs a cause" would necessarily exclude an uncaused God. This is "question begging" (assuming what needs to be proved). It's like presuming that since all reality is physical (which can't be demonstrated), a nonphysical God cannot exist.

    Third, why think everything needs a cause, since an uncaused entity is logical and intelligible? Through the centuries, many believed that the universe didn't need a cause; it was self-existent. They thought a beginningless/uncaused universe wasn't illogical or impossible. But now that contemporary cosmology points to the universe's beginning and an external cause, skeptics insist everything (in nature) needs a cause after all!

    Fourth, a good number of uncaused things do exist. Logical laws are real; we can't think coherently without using them (e.g., the law of identity, X = X, tells you: "This book is this book"). Moral laws or virtues (love, justice) are real. But none of these began to exist. They are eternal and uncaused (being in God's mind).

    Fifth, the question "Who made God?" commits the category fallacy. To say that all things, even God, must be caused is incoherent - like the question "How does the color green taste?" Why fault God for being uncaused? When we rephrase the question to say, "What caused the self-existent, uncaused God, who is by definition unmade, to exist?" the answer is obvious.

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