View Full Version : Shawn A. McCraney of Heart of the Matter Experienced a False Conversion in 1997

05-29-2017, 10:09 PM
Shawn A. McCraney is a false convert to Christianity.

False conversion #1 - believes he can lose salvation.

Shawn said, "This verse speaks about some falling away."

False conversion #2 - calvinism.

Shawn said, "Were there false prophets that came into the early church? Absolutely. It came with Arminianism."

False conversion #3 - rejecting the Jesus who returns to reign on earth for 1000 years.

Shawn said he is a preterist.

False conversion #4 - rejecting Apostles today.

Shawn said, "ONLY firsthand witnesses would ever be counted as apostolically."

False conversion #5 - rejecting the Triune God.

Shawn said, "When it comes to viewing the Trinity, I do not consider that Monotheistic."

False conversion #6 - not valuing all 66 books as God's word.

Shawn said, "the Bible is secondary," and "The Bible was never meant as a manual for how to do Church today," and "church history is inconsequential," and "There was no Bible for 250 years."

False conversion #7 - thinking Jesus might have been married and had sexual relations.

Shawn said he is "not absolutely sure Jesus was not married."

If I watch more of McCraney I am sure there will be more to add to the list. He has a strange Jesus. We shall know him by his fruits. He seems to still carry many things with him from Mormonism though he is no longer a professed Mormon.

05-29-2017, 11:08 PM
Your attacks are only partly correct and some of them are flat out wrong.
But I refuse to engage with men of your ilk. I can only wish you the best
and pray for your well being. Jesus is Lord and Savior.
You refuse to engage with actual Christians. Understand where your coyness comes from. It comes from exalting self, independency and rebelling against God. Since you worship a false Christ, you exalt self. You are the center of all things. All of these 7 reasons reflect that, that you are not born-again and have never been a child of God. All you have is coyness. That is not how a Paul would respond for he would defend the faith and repent of his own sins. I don't break bread with people of your ilk because you are a fraud. I can't break bread with false Christians, I just can't. I would rather go to a home of atheists and give them the gospel.

If there one verses that applied to you more than anything else, I would have you consider 2 Pet. 2.21.

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

You were given the clear gospel in 1997 and came close to the door of salvation, but you didn't enter and give into it. It would have been better for you if you stayed a Mormon. Now your place in Hell will be even worse and you would have had a greater opportunity of giving your life to Christ at some future point if you were still a Mormon.

J. Warner Wallace (Cold-Case Christianity) was also a Mormon, as was most his family, and when he left, he gave his life to Christ. He accepted the Triune God. You never did. J. Warner Wallace said that he believes non-Trinitarians are going to Hell. I agree.

I have every respect for Wallace and no respect for you Shawn A. McCraney.

Your fruit of obesity and gluttony makes more sense in this context now since you never died on the cross with Christ to your old man, so your flesh is in control and you don't have the Holy Spirit in you.

http://www.courageouschristiansunited.org/blog/Shawn-McCraney-is-a-Heretic-and-Needs-Adult-Supervision-48993 (good information in this article, but be warned the writer is a Calvinist so he is not a Christian either)

05-30-2017, 06:50 PM
Shawn A. McCraney is a Modalist even Though He Says He is Not

Re: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS4YzzBjMzk&feature=autoshare

Shawn said at 50:40 "John did not say in the beginning was Jesus."

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1.1). "And the Word [Jesus] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1.14). Put these two verses together to know "the Word" is "Jesus."

Who's right? Shawn or John? John said, "In the beginning was the Word...and the Word [Jesus] was made flesh." Shawn says, "John did not say in the beginning was Jesus." I go with John not Shawn.

Shawn said "Jesus got His name when He was born." So what? In the beginning was before time and space. Before time and space was the Word Jesus as the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

Shawn said at 50:50, "Jesus existed as the Father and the Son pre-creation." Nowhere is this found in the Bible. Shawn said "the Word became Jesus" at the 51:00 mark. It doesn't say the Word became Jesus. It says "the Word [Jesus] was made flesh." The Word was always there equal with the Father and the Spirit as 3 Persons. There is no Father, Son, Spirit before time and space.

How is this not the Trinity of the 3 Persons of the Godhead before time and space? Shawn keeps talking, but doesn't say how this is not the Trinity. In fact, he is a modalist, for he said, "Jesus existed as the Father and the Son pre-creation." How can Jesus exist as the Father before creation when Shawn said "the word became Jesus"? Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

Shawn comes out of Mormonism which has no clue about the Trinity. Shawn has the same problem. He is clueless. I don't think he even realizes he is a Modalist, but I just quoted him again speaking as a Modalist. There is sequential Modalism and there is simultaneous Modalism. Both are false. Shawn said he believes, "the Father became the Son and the Son became the Spirit." That's sequential. It's still different Modes. In simultaneous Modalism Father, Son and Spirit is God being a ventriloquist still.

At 52:50 Shawn said "the Trinity is a man made creed taught from birth, and they are right [speaking of his Mormon brethren]." I think Shawn is too invested in his position that he can't let go and submit himself to the Triune God.

Shawn said, "I will never join your fray [referred to Trinitarians]." Trinitarians will never join Shawn's fray.

Shawn takes God manifesting Himself as fire and smoke as modalism. No! That is not modalism. Modalism is claiming Jesus is the Father and the Father is the Spirit and the Spirit is the Son. Shawn is confused.

Shawn said the RCC killed more people who rejected the Trinity than anyone in history. I am not so sure about that.


Look how angry Shawn gets kicking against the Trinity. He will do this for eternity in Hell.

This is what all cults do. Shawn changes "Him" to an "it (1:34:30). When you degrade the Trinity you debase God. He changes. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (Rev. 1.3).

Just after this McCraney said the Word is not Jesus. He says the Word is the mind of God. How does that work? It's so foreign to the Triune God. So one time the Word is the mind of God and elsewhere Shawn says the Word becomes Jesus. So confusing.

At 144:40, the white haired gentleman accused the Trinitarians of "looking through the glass darkly." On the contrary, non-Trinitarians are darkened because they bring God down to our level which is to say, 1 Person in 3 modes (father, son, husband). Everyone can understand that, but can they understand a God with 3 wills? Christians see the Father, Son and Spirit, coming from God's 3 Persons even before time and space. It would seem to me this explanation confounds people much more than a modalistic view. Therefore, the Trinitarian God is higher and trumps the Modalistic god.

What comes to mind is Shawn's petty self obsessed with rejecting the Trinity just like Mormons.

That was beautiful. Go to 1:57:15 and you will see Shawn is a modalist through and through.

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1.4). Jesus is the "him" referred to as the word become flesh. Shawn says the word was not a person and was not Jesus, but became Jesus when Jesus became flesh. How can you call the "word" an "it" when Scriptures says the word is "Him"?

At the 2:04 mark, "In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him."

Shawn reads this as God sent Jesus into the world after Jesus was born rather than the Christian view, God sent Jesus into the world to be born. I definitely prefer the Christian interpretation. When you read it Shawn's way, you say God sent His only begotten Son into the world after He is already born and in the world. Another weird way of saying what Shawn says is that Jesus became incarnate and then was sent into the world, rather than sent into the world to be incarnate. Again, I go with the Christian view.

John 1.10, "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." Jesus was in the world and the world was made by Him. Shawn says Jesus doesn't exist until He is born. Yet John 1.10 says Jesus created the world so Jesus must have existed before being born. Jesus was given out of the Triune Godhead to create all things. The Word was made flesh only after Jesus the Word created all things.

Sean's favorite sin is doublemindedness. He said he went to 10 churches and claimed they are all heretical (which is why his television show was shut down), and in the same breath he says not to do that because it is divisive. He is talking out of the side of his face.

05-30-2017, 07:30 PM
Shawn said he, "doesn't believe Jesus' name was Jesus in the beginning" (58:45). Trinitarians are not saying Jesus' name was Jesus before time and space so Shawn is bearing false witness against Trinitarians. Shawn is still a Modalist since he says Jesus is the Father. "Jesus existed as the Father and the Son pre-creation."

Shawn said, "I don't see anywhere in the OT the Father is called the Father or the Son called the Son." Yet sometimes the Father is spoken of, other times the Son, and yet other times the Spirit. "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?" (Prov. 30.4).

Shawn said he "just doesn't like the word Trinity." So we are suppose to get a rid of word even though it accurately identifies God's 3 Persons? Shawn doesn't believe in God's 3 Persons. He believes in modalism.

Shawn says, "We have boxed up God up using the term Trinity." On the contrary, God has 3 wills which is miraculous in His 3 Persons. Shawn has boxed God up because he says the Father is the Son, the Son is the Spirit, and the Spirit is the Father. He says God is 1 Person with 3 modes. Humans can understand a human can be a father, son, husband, but all of a sudden God is no longer boxed because humans can't understand a God having 3 Persons with 3 wills.

Shawn said, "If you are Calvinist you are my brother." Calvinists refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, rejecting the gospel of salvation Jesus died for all.

Modalism is a man made construct that Shawn wholly endorses.

Shawn said, "the Trinity is pagan polytheism and unbiblical garbage."

Joseph Smith said, "All the churches are an abomination." Shawn says, "all the creeds are an abomination."

Shawn calls himself an "anarchist." Anarchy is rebellion in Mark 13. Shawn is rebelling against the Church body of Christ. Anarchy is "freedom without restraint."

Shawn said "the Father is a Spirit." It doesn't say that. The Bible says, "the Father is a spirit." The Father is not the 3rd Person of the Trinity.

I wouldn't want to be in a Sunday meeting of non-Trinitarians. It would feel evil to me. In part, the reason why Shawn rejects the Trinity is he feels he can get more Mormons to leave Mormonism when Shawn says to them he agrees the Trinity is false. It is vain and superficial of course, because Shawn is just leading Mormons form one cult into another.

Shawn is a Modalist. This does not mean because God manifests himself in different ways in the OT. Rather it means, God's very Persons are equally interchangeable, making God a ventriloquist. Where does Jesus speak to Himself as the Father for example? Where does Shawn have the right to pluck Jesus and the Spirt into the Father before time and space, whereby they lose their distinction as the 3 Persons? I can't find that in Scripture, so Shawn must be a heretical modalist. Before time and space was the Lover, Beloved and the Spirit of love between them. You can't have true love if you don't have someone to love.

Shawn said like Joseph Smith with regard to the creeds, "I can do something better." (1:24:30). Then Shawn said, "Joseph Smith had some good idea with the creeds." Shawn even said, the creeds absolutely confuse him.

05-30-2017, 10:23 PM
Shawn admitted he believes in the "3 modes of God" (modalism) as Father, Son and Spirit, and that before creation (time and space), God did not have 3 Persons but was without them. So his God did not have a love relationships of a lover, beloved and spirit of love between them in community and fellowship. Whereas say the Muslim God is just God with 1 will and 1 person, and no community of love as a Triune God.

Since Jesus prayed to the Father, He was not praying to Himself. They are distinct Persons. The Holy Spirit is working as well. God did not turn His being into a ventriloquist. He always had 3 Persons distinct but not separate and in creation they are revealed though before creation there was no Father, Son and Spirit just the 3 Persons.

Shawn said it is not our place to know if someone is saved or not. That's weird, because if it that were true then you couldn't have fellowship with the body of Christ, and you couldn't know who to give the gospel of salvation to.

The contradiction is he removes the 3 personages (Persons) of God before creation. Jesus is a personage, the Father is a personage, and Shawn even called the Holy Spirit He one time.

Shawn is saying these are 3 modes of God. So he is a Modalist. That is worshiping a false God. Nowhere do we find before creation (time and space) God not being 3 Persons and in creation 3 Persons. He has no reason he gives for not having the 3 Persons of the Godhead before time and space.

Since Shawn can't find a verse to support Modalism then he worships a false Christ that is not in a love relationship in the community of the Trinity. Shawn is in rebellion against God. No Modalists get into Heaven.

Shawn might still say he is saved if he saw 5 personages in Scripture. Evidence doesn't matter to him. It's like it doesn't matter if there are 3, 5, or 10 Persons and if they go back to being no Persons before time and space. Just start up another McCraney cult.

Shawn is quite disingenuous as he says at 5:32, "you can smoke time and space." We talkin about t he 3 Persons of the Godhead existing before time and space, and Shawn wants to smoke time and space? He is saying you can disregard creation by the 3 Persons of the Godhead.

New birth—receiving God’s own life—is the starting point of all spiritual life. How useless it is if the end result of all our exhortation, persuasion, argument, explanation and study is but to induce some understanding in the mind, some determination in the will, some feeling in the emotion. It has not assisted people to receive God’s life into their spirit. But if we who are responsible for preaching the gospel truly perceive that unless people receive God’s life into the depths of their beings we have not done anything profitable, then what a drastic reformation will there be in our work! Indeed, such knowledge will bring us to the realization that many who do profess to believe in the Lord Jesus have never actually done so. Tears, penitence, reform, zeal and labor: these are not the hallmarks of a Christian. Happy are we if we know that our responsibility is to bring man to receive God’s uncreated life. (Watchman Nee, CFP white cover)



05-30-2017, 11:57 PM
McCraney says there is no distinction of the 3 Persons in the Godhead in the Old Testament. That is so wrong. There are many distinctions, not always, but more often than not.

"They were calling out to each other,
Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Heaven’s Armies!
The whole earth is filled with his glory!” (Is. 6.3)

"The Lord has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts—
so that their eyes cannot see,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and have me heal them.” (Is. 6.10)

"The Lord has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts—
so that their eyes cannot see,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and have me heal them.” (John 12.40)

"Isaiah was referring to Jesus when he said this, because he saw the future and spoke of the Messiah’s glory" (John 12.41)

05-31-2017, 12:15 PM
My email to Shawn McCraney today.


The more we talk about the Trinity publically and the more people write blogs and do videos about you like I have done (I'm going to a do a big one next that takes several hours), the more that people know you are non-Trinitarian and are unable to defend the Persons of the Godhead vanishing before time and space. The more people know this about you, the more people will rebuke you and not consider you a Christian for there is no love relationship if there is not the Godhead of 3 Persons in community with each other. This far transcends your idea of God as 1 Person operating in 3 different modes (e.g. father, husband, son). This the nature of humans, not God. God can't be fully explained because He is infinitely greater than us so how we define God should leave some unanswered questions. I think you get lots of backlash not only because you are a Modalist, but because you are so arrogant and yet so wrong and your reading of Scripture so weird. I don't know how someone can be like that, but certainly not someone who has the Holy Spirit.

I've never seen anyone talk around a subject as much as you, instead of just addressing Scripture which we can find no support for Modalism. Doesn't evidence matter to you? But we do see the 3 Persons of the Godhead and they never cease to exist. For example, before time and space, Jesus created all things as the 2nd Person of the Trinity. Jesus existed before time and space. He was not a mixture mingled with the Father and the Spirit and then manifests himself into different modes. These are rather, God's 3 distinct Persons, but not separate since God is one being.

How can a doctor treat you if you don't admit your condition? You continually refuse to admit you are a Modalist which shows you don't understand the simplest of things, so how can you be delivered from this charade-type god if you don't admit you are a Modalist? You're not sensitive to this in your spirit because it has not been quickened so you have never been regenerated by God, still living in the old creation and not a new creation of God.

Your feelings are hurt because your feelings are deceiving you. If someone shows you are being harmful and not loving when you thought you were being loving it will take some adjustment. Should someone who has harbored a lie for decades come out of it unscathed? Of course not. It will be painful but also liberating if you finally accept the Triune God and let God break down your contradiction that the 3 Persons vanish when they never vanished in Scripture.

I sincerely hope this helps you Mr. 1%. Print this out, and when you go to sleep tonight read it over and over until you at least understand what the Trinity is.

Praise the Lord!

06-01-2017, 11:31 AM
My email today to Shawn McCraney of Heart of the Matter.

How Shawn McCraney (ex-Mormon) Mocks Jesus

Shawn has always hated the Trinity of God ever since he was a Mormon child. He has unrelentingly been hostile to the Triune God of the Bible ever since. Since Shawn is a Modalist which means he believes before time and space (creation), there were no Persons of the Godhead, he is clearly mocking the Godhead. How? Because, for example, when Jesus prayed to the Father, in Modalism he is really praying to himself because there is no distinction of God's 3 Persons. Shawn might come back and say Jesus is not praying to himself; but really he is, because ultimately there is no distinctions in the Godhead of God's 3 Persons. The Father is the Son, the Son is the Father, the Spirit is the Father, the Father is the Spirit, the Spirit is the Son and the Son is the Spirit.

It makes the Bible one big joke and a ventriloquist act. It's irreverent. How in anyway is this personal and relational in the community of the Godhead conducive for fellowship and love between God's Persons? It's not and never will be. God doesn't need to create us. He could have remained in perfect communion between His 3 Persons with a lover, beloved and spirit of love among them.

Many creeds and councils in church history have denounced Modalism and Modalists. Never once were Modalists every considered Christian members of the body of Christ in church history. Therefore, we know Shawn McCraney is going to Hell, because he mocks God of the Bible for his own approach to things, relying on his own strength, however confused and ridiculous. He is rebellious, independent, an anarchist (not in a good way), and not a conformist to the body of Christ of the church in locality. We know that much since all the churches in Shawn's community have written a letter rejecting Shawn as their brother in Christ. The reason they did this was because Shawn was acting like Joseph Smith calling all the non-Mormon churches an abomination and all their creeds are corrupt. I have never found anything wrong with the creeds, nor does Shawn provide any specifically. He's just winging it in his hostile spirit. Shawn is a coy and sneaky person. He will dance around issues of the Trinity while rejecting it.

In the beginning was the word Jesus, the word Jesus was with God the Father, and the word was God (that is, in the Godhead). Since John 1 says the word is Jesus (not that the word became Jesus, but rather the word Jesus became flesh) this is a clearly rejection of the Trinity. Jesus created all things so Jesus didn't become Jesus when He was born.

Shawn can mock Jesus all he wants, but he is still Mr. 1%, that is, he has less than a 1% chance of ever giving his life to Christ, because people in his similar situation, less than 1% of the time ever repented and recanted of their Modalism for Trinitarianism to be members of the body of Christ. Most people who give their life to Christ know little of the Trinity. For example when I was born-again January, 2001, all I accepted was "Jesus sums up all things." Soon after I learned of the Trinity and accepted it whole heartedly because that is the nature of God I gave my life to when I first accepted Christ.


06-01-2017, 07:06 PM
Shawn should question himself, for even he would concede he is one of the most bombastic people who ever claimed to be in Christendom. Where is the humility in that? Not everyone in Christendom is saved. Humility accepts the Triune God. Let us be grateful to God we don't have to spend eternity with Modalists. God has a special place for them in Hell.

06-01-2017, 10:03 PM
An Example of How Modalism is a Satanic Charade

How is Modalism a charade? On my forums I have several accounts. Sometimes I respond to myself from one username to another. I don't really try to conceal this fact if someone finds me out. It would give the impression I am talking to someone else, but I am really just talking to myself. I am 1 Person operating in different modes, but before I created these different modes I was still just 1 Person. These different modes were never really intrinsically a part of me anymore than the modalist Father, Son, and Spirit were God. I just made them up to give some action to the forums and to fulfill certain purposes or functions. I might use one username to address certain topics, and another username for other issues. I have different purposes for each username. This is the type of god Modalists believe in. It is very humanistic as I admit very humanistically that I am doing this. On a human level it is very easy to understand. We can all understand how human I am doing this. This would never convince anyone I am God except for maybe the ex-Mormon Shawn A. McCraney. Can we or should we reduce God down to such a simple boxed in way?

I believe in the God who has always had 3 Persons or personages with 3 wills and since they are all God, the Son is able to do the perfect will of the Father by the Holy Spirit in his spirit. This is God's relational nature and ability to commune among the 3 Persons of the Godhead.

In Modalism the different wills are just illusory because they go back to being just 1 Person before time and space, just like my different handles are just illusory with respect to who I am, for I only have 1 will as I am only 1 Person however mixed up my will "appears" to be in different username personas. I may be presenting 2 wills in 2 accounts unbeknownst to me, but in reality I only have 1 will just like in Modalism you may see the operation of the Father's will and the Son's will, but they are the exact same will unless God has multiple personality. Jesus is not really doing the will of the Father but himself in Modalism since there is no differentiation if this is all just 1 Person.

People might accuse me of being a ventriloquist or deceiving people pretending to be someone else that I am not. However I do have different purposes for my usernames although that confuses me at times. I readily admit that I should disclose all the usernames under my usage which I will do if someone asks. It's actually quite obvious when you look at the member list.

So which God do you believe in, a god with different usernames but really only has 1 will, faked as multiple wills, or 3 wills in 3 Persons? The Trinity or the Triune God of 3 Persons in the Godhead.

You can't go to Heaven if you don't repent of Modalism because there is no sin in Heaven. Misrepresenting God is a sin.

Ultimately what this does is make one disenchanted, misunderstanding they are leaving a cult of modalism, rather than leaving Christianity. Leaving modalism is a good thing.

Modalists make God a schizophrenic with multiple personality talking to himself.


06-02-2017, 11:48 PM
William Lane Craig doesn't believe you are saved, because you are Modalist. Of course Craig is not saved since he thinks he can lose salvation tomorrow.

William said, "By keep the Persons of the Trinity straight and in order will have practical importance for our devotional Christian lives. Jesus said to pray to the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit."

Though we have a spirit, soul and body which may appear at times to be 3 distinct persons in us, of course we only have 1 will. But the Godhead of 3 Persons has 3 wills. Craig said, "when it comes to God these Persons are much more fully transacted in God."

The Son of God is not the imminent logos in the Father's mind, but the very logos Who always was the 2nd Person in the Godhead. The word become flesh, not the word became Jesus. The word already was Jesus.

"I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you" (Ps. 2.7).

"Begotten indicates a definite point in time-the point at which conception takes place. By definition the begetter (Father) always must come before the begotten (Offspring). There must be a time when the begetter exists and the begotten is not yet in existence...", "So the words begotten and Son each contradict the word eternal as applied to the Son of God." Quoting the phrase from Heb.1:5-6 in reference to time, "The Son was begotten on a specific day in time; there was a time when the Son did not exist;" If this is so then there was a time when the Father did not exist either, because to be called a Father means one has a Son. Modalism doesn't make sense.

Subordination is for the purpose of engaging humanity, but there was no subordination before creation.

Dynamic monarchianism (1 person) is where God entered Jesus like God can enter all of us so Jesus is called God. Whereas Modalism monarchianism (still 1 person) is God manifests himself in three emanations of Himself (overlapping). Sabellianism is another name for Modalism or Patripassianism and is simultaneous not consecutive/successive. Sequential modalism is God flipping between modes but never in two modes at once (non-overlapping). Trimanifestation is simultaneous Modalism which is really emanations of God otherwise known as Pantheism as the ripples of water producing outwardly from himself.

The 3 Persons of the Godhead are 1 Substance, simply to mean, one thing: God. The 3 Persons in the Trinity are distinct but NOT separate.

Modalism is really just masquerading and role playing as Jesus goes up to the Father, changes His clothes and comes back as the Holy Spirit. Funny! At the baptism of Jesus where the Father speaks and the Holy Spirit descends like a dove on Jesus, Jesus has to be a really good ventriloquist.


06-03-2017, 07:26 PM
Satan doesn't mind cheap imitations of God with 3 masks, e.g. modalism. Why are all these Trinitarians, including early church fathers say Shawn A. McCraney is a heretic and going to Hell. That's all I am saying as well. Peddle a false god and people will come running into the arms of Shawn McCraney and mega churches too.

T.D. Jakes, a modalist, is one of the most wealthiest preachers in America.


Ask a modalist since Jesus was begotten how can Jesus be eternal? They say Jesus was created when conceived by Mary and that the Word is just a thought in God's mind to create Jesus. Therefore, Jesus in Modalism is Arianist. Modalists are really Arians. A former Oneness Pentecostal is now Trinitarian and labels the "Jesus Trick" when Modalists are asked if Jesus is eternal; they say yes, except what they really mean is Jesus is the Father since there is no distinction before time and space to them. This is a trick they pull. All cults accept the Father as eternal, but not all cults accept Jesus was eternal and not the Father. You can't be both created and eternal before time and space.

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds" (Heb. 1.2).


Bottom line: Modalists are really Arians just like JW's. Wikipedia at least affirms there are some of us who recognize Modalists are Arians.


Accusations of Modalism and Arianism

Oneness believers are often accused of being Monistic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monism) or Modalistic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalism).[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism#cite_note-ourworld.compuserve-31) They have also occasionally been accused of Arianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism) or Semi-Arianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Arianism), usually by isolated individuals rather than church organizations.[32] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism#cite_note-32) While Oneness theologian Dr. David Bernard indicates that Modalistic Monarchianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modalistic_Monarchianism) and Oneness are essentially the same, and that Sabellius was basically correct, (so long as one does not understand Modalism to be the same as patripassianism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patripassianism)),[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism#cite_note-The_Oneness_of_God-23) and while Arius also believed that God is a singular Person, Bernard vehemently denies any connection to Arianism or Subordinationism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subordinationism) in Oneness teaching.[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism#cite_note-ourworld.compuserve-31)

06-03-2017, 08:52 PM
Is. 9.6 the father refers to the founder, author and creator, and the kingly Messiah; the man Christ Jesus is a Father to His beloved people: "Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him" (Ps. 103.13). "But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand" (Is. 64.8).

It occurred to me that if you want to make Jesus the Father in Is. 9.6 then it stands to reason the Father in the NT is the son, but of course, no such verses exist that say that. Would you want a blind faith such as that? Clearly in the NT Jesus is not the Father so the father in Is. 9.6 is not the Father in the NT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_210369471&feature=i v&src_vid=4HcCVTDXcVU&v=-NEhVfalqCc

06-03-2017, 09:16 PM
God is tripersonal NOT a trimanifestation. The latter is tripantheism emanations and Arianism since we are told by Modalists Jesus was created from the Word (John 1.1) even though Jesus created all things. The "Jesus Trick" says Jesus is the Father so Jesus is eternal, but that's a contradiction to when Modalists say Jesus was created/begotten as the Son.

[Col 1:16-18 KJV] 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

If Jesus is before all things then He was not created from the Word, nor did the Word become Jesus, but the Word Jesus became flesh.

[Heb 1:2-3 KJV] 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus was the Son before the Incarnation. I guess that's why He is the only begotten Son, or is it because He was resurrected so He is the firstborn? Either way He always existed as the Word of God in John chapter 1.

For someone to be the Incarnation means pre-existence. So Jesus was not created through Mary.

Modalists are really Arians (rejecting Jesus is God) in disguise because their Jesus was created, a created emanation like in Pantheism. You can't receive the atonement from anyone but God. Since the Modalism Jesus is not God, Modalists are not forgiven and remain bound for Hell.

Claiming God is in Jesus so Jesus is God would not be true since we whom are saved are born-again have God in us, yet we are not God.