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Churchwork
09-21-2008, 12:48 PM
I am a MUSLIM who is a true follower of Jesus Christ.

If you dont believe that Holy Spirit who is The Last Prophet of God is the god then you are all going to hell.

Believe in One True God!

There is no 1+1+1 = 1 !

Muslims reject Christ, because He said He is God and Muslims deny what Jesus said and the multiple attestation of His resurrection. I am glad somebody in a cave all by himself six centuries later who wrote the Koran doesn't count.

In fact Muslims teach Jesus didn't die on the cross, without any evidence to support such a claim at all. How embarrassing that is for your faith. One way to reject the atoning sacrifice for the penalty for sin through His death on the cross by shedding the precious blood is to shut your mind down and say He never died. Perhaps if you say that enough times you might convince yourself as your mind blocks your inner spirit's sensitivity to unchallenged evidence in the prophecies of the Messiah, the New Testament accounts and early non-Christian writings.

The name of Jesus is Holy and does not belong in your username. You are welcome to rejoin though.

The Trinity math is not 1+1+1=1 but 1/3+1/3+1/3=1. When you hear some say 1+1+1=1 just realize what they are saying that each Person is expressed as God, so God is 3 Persons. Jesus is fully God bodily. The Spirit is fully God in my spirit. The Father is fully God whom I pray to. See how that works? All 3 Persons make up the Godhead Who is Tripersonal. The Triune God is your Creator whether you like it or not. Throughout the Bible He reveals Himself by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. He is relational within Himself and out of the abundance of His glory, He creates you in His image.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit is a god or a prophet. I do know the unholy trinity of Satan, the first beast (Antichrist) and the second beast (False Prophet) try to copy God's Trinity. That's why you called the Holy Spirit a prophet and a god, because the False Prophet tries to make himself great also and tries to mimic the Holy Spirit.

There is no evidence in God's Word to support the claims of Islam, so you can be confident Mohammed (that guy in a cave) is going to Hell and so are 99+% of Muslims. There is always exceptions to the rules of course.

Believe in the One True God. And if you think Jesus is just a man, you shouldn't be following him.

Hope that helps.

Try a short course in practical logic for Muslims (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2643) and see how the Bible starts off with the Trinity (http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2643).


I've always had difficulty with the "trinity" doctrine and concept. Even after twenty years of being a born again Christian, I couldn't seem to grasp the concept. Other Christians claimed they had an understanding of it but they admitted it was very difficult to articulate.
Robert Ingersoll makes the following comments in Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 4, p. 266-67:

Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third.
Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both.
The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son.

The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two.

So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity.
Christians are faced with a dilemma. The Bible says in the Old Testament, "I, even I, am the Lord; and besides me there is no savior" (Isa. 43:11). "Salvation belongeth unto the Lord . . ." (Psalms 3:8. "For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour . . ." (Isaiah 43:3). According to the Old Testament, only God can be the Savior. In order for Jesus Christ to be the Savior, he must also be God. Trinity advocates use:

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30);
". . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 17:22);
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word was God" (John 1"1);
". . . that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me and I in Him"
". . .he that hath seen me hath seen the Father. . ." (John 14:9)
". . .Holy Father keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."John 17:11
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 3:8,9.
The Bible has many more verses denying the Trinity than it has confirming it:

"Why callest me good? There is none good but one, that is God" (Matthew 19:17)
". . .for my Father is greater than I. . ." (John 14:28)
"My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)
"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt." (Matthew 26:39)
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46)
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32)
"Who has gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God" (Peter 3:22)
There are, of course, more scriptures. The passages quoted are a representative of the opposing concepts.

Here is the dilemma. Christians know that in order for Jesus to be the savior of mankind, he must also be God. The bible says so. If he is not God, then he cannot be the savior. His death would be meaningless. So Christians have invented the Trinity to explain Christ's divinity. He is man. He is God. He is both. He must be in order to be the savior. Unfortunately, he is ambivalent at best. Sometimes he claims to be one with God. Sometimes he admits God knows things which he doesn't know and does things which he cannot do. Christians go to nearly any length to prove the Trinity including the declaration that its a "mystery" and we "just don't have the mind to understand it". Is the bible the perfect, inerrant word of God? The Christian created Trinity doctrine and the contradictions which must accompany the doctrine sound a resounding "No"! So how did the Trinity doctrine/dogma come into existence?

The origins of the Trinity doctrine are appalling. Like most historic issues pertaining to Christianity, there was much deceit and bloodshed. Many lives were lost before 'Trinitarianism' was finally adopted.

As many Christians know, the word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible. It doesn't because it is a doctrine which evolved in early Christianity. It was a manipulated, bloody and deadly process before it finally arrived as an 'accepted' doctrine of the church.

CONSTANTINE - THE TRINITY PROCESS BEGINS

Flavius Valerius Constantius (c. 285-337 AD), Constantine the Great, was the son of Emperor Constantius I. When his father died in 306 AD, Constantine became emperor of Britain, Gaul (now France), and Spain. Gradually he gained control of the entire Roman empire.

Theological differences regarding Jesus Christ began to manifest in Constantine's empire when two major opponents surfaced and debated whether Christ was a created being (Arius doctrine) or not created but rather coequal and coeternal to God his father (Athanasius doctrine).

The theological warfare between the Arius and Athanasius doctrinal camps became intense. Constantine realized that the his empire was being threatened by the doctrinal rift. Constantine began to pressure the church to come to terms with its differences before the results became disastrous to his empire. Finally the emperor called a council at Nicea in 325 AD to resolve the dispute.

Only a fraction of existing bishops, 318, attended. This equated to about 18% of all the bishops in the empire. Of the 318, approximately 10 were from the Western part of Constantine's empire, making the voting lopsided at best. The emperor manipulated, coerced and threatened the council to be sure it voted for what he believed rather than an actual consensus of the bishops.

The present day Christian church touts Constantine as the first Christian emperor, however, his 'Christianity' was politically motivated. Whether he personally accepted Christian doctrine is highly doubtful. He had one of his sons murdered in addition to a nephew, his brother in law and possibly one of his wives. He continued to retain his title of high priest in a pagan religion until his death. He was not baptized until he was on his deathbed.

THE FIRST TWO THIRDS OF THE TRINITY - THE NICAEAN CREED

The majority of bishops voted under pressure from Constantine for the Athanasius doctrine. A creed was adopted which favored Athanasius's theology. Arius was condemned and exiled. Several of the Bishops left before the voting to avoid the controversy. Jesus Christ was approved to be "one substance" with God the Father. It is interesting that even now, the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches disagree with each other regarding this doctrine, the Western churches having had no influence in the 'voting'.

Two of the bishops who voted pro-Arius were also exiled and Arius's writings were destroyed. Constantine decreed that anyone caught with Arius documents would be subject to the death penalty.

The Nicaean Creed read as follows:


I believe in one God: the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God: begotten of his Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made. . .
Even with the adoption of the Nicaean Creed, problems continued and in a few years, the Arian faction began to regain control. They became so powerful that Constantine restored them and denounced the Athanasius group.
Arius's exile was ended along with the bishops who sided with him. It was now Athanasius who would be banished.
When Constantine died (after being baptized by an Arian Bishop), his son reinstated the Arian philosophy and bishops and condemned the Athanasius group.

In the following years the political foes continue to struggle and finally the Arians misused their power and were overthrown. The religious/political controversy caused widespread bloodshed and killing. In 381 AD, Emperor Theodosius (a Trinitarian) convened a council in Constantinople. Only Trinitarian bishops were invited to attend. 150 bishops attended and voted to alter the Nicene creed to include the Holy Spirit as a part of the Godhead. The Trinity doctrine was now official for both the church and the state.

Dissident bishops were expelled from the church, and excommunicated.

THE ATHANASIUS CREED COMPLETES THE TRIUNE GODHEAD

The Athanasius (Trinitarian) Creed was finally established in (probably) the 5th century. It was not written by Athanasius but adopted his name. It stated in part:


"We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God."
By the 9th century the creed was established in Spain, France and Germany. It had taken centuries from the time of Christ for the trinity doctrine to catch on. Government and church politics were the reasons the trinity came into existence and became church orthodoxy.

As you have seen, the Trinitarian doctrine came from deceit, politics, a pagan emperor and warring factions who brought about death and bloodshed.

THE CHRISTIAN TRINITY - ONE MORE IN THE PARADE OF TRINITIES Why the original clamor to elevate Jesus and the holy spirit to positions equal to the Christian/Judaeo God? Simply, the pagan world was quite used to having "three gods" or "trinities" as their deities. The trinity satisfied the majority of Christians who had come from pagan backgrounds. Christianity didn't get rid of the pagan trinities, it adopted them as it did so many other pagan traditions.

OTHER TRINITIES. Hinduism embraced the triune godhead of Brahma, the god of creation ; Vishnu the god of maintenance and Siva the god of destruction. One of Egypt's many trinities was Horus, Isis and Osiris.

The founders of the early Christian church had no idea that the Trinity concept would evolve, be voted upon by politicians, forced by emperors and eventually become an integral part of Christianity such as we have it today. Is it any wonder that its "difficult" to explain?

Is there one Christian God or Three In One? The majority of Christian churches hold to the Trinity doctrine but there are still Christian church holdouts who reject the teaching. We now enjoy the freedom to believe either doctrine but at risk of ridicule if we choose non-Trinitarian beliefs.

You ought to know that Constantine was not born-again. He worshipped the Mithra perverted and pagan cross, was not baptised until shortly before he died, and slaughtered people under the name of that Mithra cross. He said he saw some vision that told him to use this this false cross; and unlike Paul's conversion, who becomes persecuted, Constantine slaughters people and becomes Emperor, worshipped as God. He slaughtered his relatives. He presided over pagan festivals. It became popular to be a Christian as presented by Constantine, but was it Christian? Of course not. The Bible describes this marriage of the church and state as the Pergamum church period (Rev. 2). Augustine said in the 4th century said those who frequent the pagan temples were in the Christian churches. They were wearing amulates, consulted sorcerers and participated in magic. Watch the Dave Hunt video on False Prophets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofZpotcwpXg).

You can tell right away this person is not a Christian, because it is in his head he is confused and trying to understand the Trinity without his spirit being quickened by the Holy Spirit by accepting what Jesus did for him. If he had truly believed in Christ as being God and Savior, the Trinity flows from His work on the cross. Think of it this way. Only God can pay for our sins, no mere man as the Bible says, all that is born of the flesh is flesh; in other words, everybody is a sinner, except God.

Jesus is not His own Father. Christians don't believe in the modalism or unitarianism heresies rejected by the Church. Sure you can call yourself a Christian, but doesn't mean you are. Bottom line: nowhere in the Bible can you find Jesus being God the Father or God the Spirit, or the Spirit being the Father. What the Bible is saying constantly is that Jesus is uncreated because He is the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

By definition a Christian is Trinitarian. However much you don't like to hear me say this, that is how a Christian is defined, and we accept Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

Only God can forgive sins. Jesus forgave sins. The Pharisees wanted Him killed because they knew He was making Himself out to be God by forgiving sins.

The Holy Spirit is the life of the Father and the Son in the Trinity.

Three in One is 1/3+1/3+1/3, not 1+1+1. Basic grade 1 math. When you see some say 1+1+1=1 try to understand what they are saying. They are saying God the Father is God, God the Son is God and God the Spirit is God in those Persons. You're just having troubles understanding because the petty self will cling to itself to misunderstand.

Hindus believe only Brahma is uncreated. They don't believe in the 3 Persons uncreated. Though they speak of a trinity, the other 2 are not uncreated, but just the other two important gods in their faith.

The 3 Persons of the Godhead are seen in the Old Testament as well. Norman Geisler did some great work on this. There are so many cases of each Person being expressed.

There are no Christian churches that believe in a non-Trinitarian God, for by definition a Christian is one who believes in the Trinitarian God.

The Church is always a little flock. There are many in Christendom who appear to be saved, but are not, so remember that, as Jesus said He will put His sickle to the vast majority in Christendom. How much more against Islam and Hindus and Atheists? God's standards are High. It only stands to reason the few that we are who worship the Trinity are those He chosen before the foundations of the world.

As to other trinities, they are not 3 Persons uncreated, but 3 gods or unitarianistic. Do you see the difference? Moreover, there is no death, burial and resurrection to pay the penalty for sins and give eternal life. Only in Christianity, and only in Christianity does God enter His creation to pay the ransom.

The early church taught the Trinity, the Old Testament teaches the Trinity: who can deny the Father, the Messiah and the Spirit?

What does Orthodox mean? This word refers to "original". Since the Church has always believed in the Trinity and never changed, to say the Orthodox church believed something else is a contradiction. The original text is there written in the first century. Nothing man says a century or two later can change that. When you read that the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father it is because they are both of one nature being uncreated in the Trinity. Jesus is not praying to Himself when He prays to the Father. Christianity is so completely logical, even if you don't feel it, you must accept it because it is logically irrefutable. Among Peter, Paul, John, James and the other Apostles in the Church in the first century, the Trinity was already established. It need not wait for declarations by others. They spoke these words of God the Father that Jesus spoke of that the OT prophets spoke of, and the Messiah who pays the penalty for our sins and the Holy Spirit that would indwell. How strange some god would indwell my spirit. Only God can do that! Praise the Lord!

This is how to think properly about these things which you can call Biblical psychology.

I removed your account, because Jesus' name is too Holy to have in your username. You're welcome to rejoin though or email me at "Contact Us" below any time you like.